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What's so bad about 4th edition? What's so good about other systems?
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<blockquote data-quote="billd91" data-source="post: 5612209" data-attributes="member: 3400"><p>4e has some things going for it. It's reasonably fun to sit around with beer and pretzels and bash over a few encounters, rather like the D&D miniatures game. But it doesn't scratch my D&D itch like previous editions do. Some of the issues have already been mentioned and I'll add in my own.</p><p></p><p>Healing - I'm not a fan of externally sourced healing (like a potion) triggering an internal resource. I think it's a bad concept, it also brings us right back to the lack of hit points and healing resources driving a short work day - a step <strong>backward</strong> from 3e.</p><p></p><p>Sort-of dump stats - Allowing players to choose which 3 stats will drive their defenses was kind of a good idea in the sense that the defenses are no longer tied to a single stat that virtually must be maintained relatively high. It can also synergize well with the PC's offense, usually based on a primary stat, a secondary, and maybe a tertiary. Unfortunately, I find that also leads to pretty serious dump statting since you can virtually ignore 3 stats entirely (as long as you're willing to put up with a few low skill checks). But because there are still some differences in what the stats do (Con and Dex particularly), not all classes can dump stat the same. Compare the brute rogue with the artful dodger. The artful dodger can invest in Dex, Con, and Charisma and dump the other three but the brute can't. The same thing happens with characters relying on strength but needing hit points and surges. They can't so easily dump both Str and Con as someone who really only needs a decent Fort defense and hit points/surges.</p><p></p><p>Powers - I can get behind the idea of encounter powers for martials particularly, but not dailies. A better implementation would have been to dispense with martial dailies and just include a daily level of output for each encounter power. Then, the martial character can have a consistent fighting style but produce exceptional results when he feels the narrative demands it.</p><p>I also have problems with the daily powers for spellcasters - what if I want to play someone who specializes in a particular spell as his signature? In previous editions, I could prep a single spell multiple times. Not so, as far as I can tell, in 4e. </p><p></p><p>Static defenses - I tolerate them in Star Wars Saga Edition, but I don't really favor them. I very much prefer the saving throw to the static defense. It works better with action points and other meta-abilities that allow a player to modify his result after he sees the roll. </p><p></p><p>Flavor - I don't like some of the changes in game lore and flavor. I didn't appreciate the shift in storm giants. I didn't appreciate the shift on unicorns. I don't see much value being added to the game in changing the lore that had existed since at least 1e, particularly when 4e purported to be the latest edition in that particular branch of the game. </p><p></p><p>It became clearer as elements were previewed and once I read the initial books that 4e wasn't the game I wanted. And I had been pretty optimistic. I had been skeptical of 3e when it was announced but Eric Noah's news site and the previews showed me that 3e was the D&D I wanted to play. My experience with 4e was totally the opposite. It reinforced that the 3e strain of D&D, now embodied best by Pathfinder, was the version I wanted most of all.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="billd91, post: 5612209, member: 3400"] 4e has some things going for it. It's reasonably fun to sit around with beer and pretzels and bash over a few encounters, rather like the D&D miniatures game. But it doesn't scratch my D&D itch like previous editions do. Some of the issues have already been mentioned and I'll add in my own. Healing - I'm not a fan of externally sourced healing (like a potion) triggering an internal resource. I think it's a bad concept, it also brings us right back to the lack of hit points and healing resources driving a short work day - a step [b]backward[/b] from 3e. Sort-of dump stats - Allowing players to choose which 3 stats will drive their defenses was kind of a good idea in the sense that the defenses are no longer tied to a single stat that virtually must be maintained relatively high. It can also synergize well with the PC's offense, usually based on a primary stat, a secondary, and maybe a tertiary. Unfortunately, I find that also leads to pretty serious dump statting since you can virtually ignore 3 stats entirely (as long as you're willing to put up with a few low skill checks). But because there are still some differences in what the stats do (Con and Dex particularly), not all classes can dump stat the same. Compare the brute rogue with the artful dodger. The artful dodger can invest in Dex, Con, and Charisma and dump the other three but the brute can't. The same thing happens with characters relying on strength but needing hit points and surges. They can't so easily dump both Str and Con as someone who really only needs a decent Fort defense and hit points/surges. Powers - I can get behind the idea of encounter powers for martials particularly, but not dailies. A better implementation would have been to dispense with martial dailies and just include a daily level of output for each encounter power. Then, the martial character can have a consistent fighting style but produce exceptional results when he feels the narrative demands it. I also have problems with the daily powers for spellcasters - what if I want to play someone who specializes in a particular spell as his signature? In previous editions, I could prep a single spell multiple times. Not so, as far as I can tell, in 4e. Static defenses - I tolerate them in Star Wars Saga Edition, but I don't really favor them. I very much prefer the saving throw to the static defense. It works better with action points and other meta-abilities that allow a player to modify his result after he sees the roll. Flavor - I don't like some of the changes in game lore and flavor. I didn't appreciate the shift in storm giants. I didn't appreciate the shift on unicorns. I don't see much value being added to the game in changing the lore that had existed since at least 1e, particularly when 4e purported to be the latest edition in that particular branch of the game. It became clearer as elements were previewed and once I read the initial books that 4e wasn't the game I wanted. And I had been pretty optimistic. I had been skeptical of 3e when it was announced but Eric Noah's news site and the previews showed me that 3e was the D&D I wanted to play. My experience with 4e was totally the opposite. It reinforced that the 3e strain of D&D, now embodied best by Pathfinder, was the version I wanted most of all. [/QUOTE]
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