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Whats the deal with rogues anyway?
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<blockquote data-quote="Mustrum_Ridcully" data-source="post: 4734842" data-attributes="member: 710"><p>A sneaky guy implies light armor (because heavy armor causes noises, and makes you less mobile and agile). THis means his fighting style will also rely on fighting in light armor and with smaller weapons (that he can conceal).</p><p></p><p>Now, you can just stop there, and have a Rogue that deals little damage and is easy to injure (even if a little harder to hit, depending on how you model armor vs agility - in D&D, it's basically the same.)</p><p></p><p>But you can also go further and say that he still needs the same "fighting power" than a character that focuses on heavy armor and big, heavy weapons. </p><p></p><p>THe ways to achieve this is: </p><p>- Make good reflexes/agility similar effective to avoid injuries as heavy armor.</p><p>- Make concealed weapon use similar effective for inflicting injuries as heavy weapons. </p><p></p><p>In the simplest model, you end up with two variants for a melee guy - the lightly armored guy with sneak attack/backstab, and the heavy armor guy with large weapons. </p><p></p><p>You can do it a little more "complicated" - you can set certain strength or weaknesses to each. </p><p>- The heavy armor guy is slower, but he can take much more punishment (either by avoiding injuries/hits or negating them). </p><p>- The light armor guy is faster, but he can't take as much punishment (he's easier to hit or damage hurts him more), but he can deal more damage than the heavy armor guy, if he uses his speed and agility. </p><p></p><p>The question that might remain is - why can't I combine both for best effect - optimum armor, heavy weapon, massive damage? What's inhibiting the heavy armor guy from using the tricks of the light armor guy. </p><p></p><p>Well, the above already answers this questions - the light armor guy has more agility than the heavy armor guy. He can move faster and outmaneuver his foe. Since he's using a smaller weapon, he also can conceal his movements easier and execute them a lot faster. </p><p></p><p>Another question might be - how easy would it be to "switch" your style? </p><p>Well, 3E and 4E D&D say it's pretty hard. But of course you could make this a general feature of your "fighting class". </p><p>- Small Weapon, Light Armor: You can inflict sneak attack damage. </p><p>- Large weapon, Heavy Armor: You can take more damage and gain the ability to mark your foe. </p><p></p><p>Or, more in 3E terms: </p><p>FighterRedux: </p><p>While wearing Light Armor or while on Medium Load or less, you gain Sneak Attack +1d6/2 levels with light weapons only. </p><p>While wearing medium or heavy armor, you gain 2 extra hit points per level and a +1 bonus to hit every 4 levels. </p><p>And as a general "career" choice you can pick: </p><p>2+INT skill points per level and Fighter skill list, plus bonus feats every 2 levels, proficiency with all armor, shield and simple and martial weapons</p><p>8+INT skill points per level and Rogue skill list, plus light armor proficiency and rogue weapon proficiency.</p><p>Or something like that... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>Why _not_ do this: The character class is harder to balance, and it's harder to play. You are not always that "tough guy" or that "mobile guy", and you have to change your play style for the character a lot - and the more optional character building options exist (feats), the more likely it is you still lock yourself into one of the two modes (unless every feat, power, maneuver, spell or whatever your system offers has a heavy/light feature).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mustrum_Ridcully, post: 4734842, member: 710"] A sneaky guy implies light armor (because heavy armor causes noises, and makes you less mobile and agile). THis means his fighting style will also rely on fighting in light armor and with smaller weapons (that he can conceal). Now, you can just stop there, and have a Rogue that deals little damage and is easy to injure (even if a little harder to hit, depending on how you model armor vs agility - in D&D, it's basically the same.) But you can also go further and say that he still needs the same "fighting power" than a character that focuses on heavy armor and big, heavy weapons. THe ways to achieve this is: - Make good reflexes/agility similar effective to avoid injuries as heavy armor. - Make concealed weapon use similar effective for inflicting injuries as heavy weapons. In the simplest model, you end up with two variants for a melee guy - the lightly armored guy with sneak attack/backstab, and the heavy armor guy with large weapons. You can do it a little more "complicated" - you can set certain strength or weaknesses to each. - The heavy armor guy is slower, but he can take much more punishment (either by avoiding injuries/hits or negating them). - The light armor guy is faster, but he can't take as much punishment (he's easier to hit or damage hurts him more), but he can deal more damage than the heavy armor guy, if he uses his speed and agility. The question that might remain is - why can't I combine both for best effect - optimum armor, heavy weapon, massive damage? What's inhibiting the heavy armor guy from using the tricks of the light armor guy. Well, the above already answers this questions - the light armor guy has more agility than the heavy armor guy. He can move faster and outmaneuver his foe. Since he's using a smaller weapon, he also can conceal his movements easier and execute them a lot faster. Another question might be - how easy would it be to "switch" your style? Well, 3E and 4E D&D say it's pretty hard. But of course you could make this a general feature of your "fighting class". - Small Weapon, Light Armor: You can inflict sneak attack damage. - Large weapon, Heavy Armor: You can take more damage and gain the ability to mark your foe. Or, more in 3E terms: FighterRedux: While wearing Light Armor or while on Medium Load or less, you gain Sneak Attack +1d6/2 levels with light weapons only. While wearing medium or heavy armor, you gain 2 extra hit points per level and a +1 bonus to hit every 4 levels. And as a general "career" choice you can pick: 2+INT skill points per level and Fighter skill list, plus bonus feats every 2 levels, proficiency with all armor, shield and simple and martial weapons 8+INT skill points per level and Rogue skill list, plus light armor proficiency and rogue weapon proficiency. Or something like that... ;) Why _not_ do this: The character class is harder to balance, and it's harder to play. You are not always that "tough guy" or that "mobile guy", and you have to change your play style for the character a lot - and the more optional character building options exist (feats), the more likely it is you still lock yourself into one of the two modes (unless every feat, power, maneuver, spell or whatever your system offers has a heavy/light feature). [/QUOTE]
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