Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Whats the deal with rogues anyway?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Remathilis" data-source="post: 4736036" data-attributes="member: 7635"><p>Meh. I'd rather have a warrior/expert/spellcaster paragrim for three classes than fighting-man/magic-user/cleric. The latter was appropriately abandoned in Supplement I: Greyhawk and never looked back to. </p><p></p><p>There are more "thieves" in fiction than "clerics" (Aladdin, Robin Hood, Antilicus, Remington Steele, Grey Mouser, Han Solo, and more vs. Rolland, Friar Tuck, and..?) In addition, arcane and divine magic is a true D&Dism since most magic in fiction can heal, destroy, buff, and protect. </p><p></p><p>There are two questions in your query.</p><p></p><p>1.) Is a "rogue" archetype viable enough to stand on its own as a separate class, and</p><p>2.) What is the best way to implement it if so.</p><p></p><p>The answer to one IMHO is yes. Fighter (and almost every variant term; warrior, etc) has implied someone who is focused on combat first, other things second. A "rogue" implies someone who uses combat as a last resort, but uses skill, guile, and luck first to avoid combat. When that fails, he enters combat with less skill than a man who lives (and dies) by the sword. The "rogue" archetype could encompass a wide-variety of skilled characters; woodsmen/archers, scouts, con-men, gamblers, smugglers, acrobats, swashbucklers, etc. </p><p></p><p>D&D's thief (and rogue) class has always committed the cardinal sin of giving rogues a role, and then allowing them to suck at it. Too often, the nature of the skill system (or % system) meant low level skill characters failed far more often then they succeeded (akin to a fighter who could only hit typical monsters on a 15+). To add insult to injury, magical means of duplicating these skills were automatically successful, making them highly valuable. And at low levels where a rogue could contribute to combat (addding in occasional strong blows) the backstab rules were so confining as to make them worthless, and SA was so good they had to cripple it by making it only work some of the time. </p><p></p><p>IMHO, a good rogue class (system independent) should do the following.</p><p>1.) Have the widest (and best) chance of succeeding at skill-use. A rogue should be able to climb a wall, sneak down a hall, and listen at a door with a reasonable chance of success at low levels, his abilities to sneak, con, and such should rival magic at high-levels. (Bluffs so good they border on charm magic, hiding so good he's practically invisible) While everyone else can climb a cliff, I want the rogue waiting at the top, eating a sandwich, yelling "come on you guys, hurry up."</p><p>2.) A rogue shouldn't need to rely on magic (be it magical items or some innate talent with it) to do his job. Magic should enhance his abilities, not replace it. </p><p>3.) If cornered, a rogue should have abilities to misdirect, confuse, and outwit his foes with dexterity, panache, and bravado. Avoiding hazards with an almost sixth-sense like ability. While a fighter can anticipate a battle and a wizard knows a magical aura when he see's it, a rogue can sense trouble long ago and has focused his abilities to avoid or confront it.</p><p>4.) When all else fails, he's good at skirmishing combat. Standing in one place trading blows is a fighter's job, he should excel a landing occasional strong blows to unsuspecting foes (occasional being key), ducking and weaving in combat to strike at foes, and mostly picking off stragglers, wizards, and other "squishies". Against an goblin or guard, he can hold his own a bit. Against an ogre or dragon, he better run behind the fighter!</p><p></p><p>All versions of D&D rogues promise this, most fail in one regard or another. Mostly, they insist on letting magic trump mundane skill and try to assemble glass-cannon combatants (I'd gladly train 1/2 my SA dice for a d8 HD and 3/4 Bab in 3.5 for example). The problem is exactly what you point out; rogues (in 3.5) ended up Trapfinding melee-fireball attacks, and in previous D&D they were walking lockpicks. </p><p></p><p>If your system makes a "fighter" that can do everything I just outlined above, I'll gladly accept your premise. Otherwise, I want my rogue class!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Remathilis, post: 4736036, member: 7635"] Meh. I'd rather have a warrior/expert/spellcaster paragrim for three classes than fighting-man/magic-user/cleric. The latter was appropriately abandoned in Supplement I: Greyhawk and never looked back to. There are more "thieves" in fiction than "clerics" (Aladdin, Robin Hood, Antilicus, Remington Steele, Grey Mouser, Han Solo, and more vs. Rolland, Friar Tuck, and..?) In addition, arcane and divine magic is a true D&Dism since most magic in fiction can heal, destroy, buff, and protect. There are two questions in your query. 1.) Is a "rogue" archetype viable enough to stand on its own as a separate class, and 2.) What is the best way to implement it if so. The answer to one IMHO is yes. Fighter (and almost every variant term; warrior, etc) has implied someone who is focused on combat first, other things second. A "rogue" implies someone who uses combat as a last resort, but uses skill, guile, and luck first to avoid combat. When that fails, he enters combat with less skill than a man who lives (and dies) by the sword. The "rogue" archetype could encompass a wide-variety of skilled characters; woodsmen/archers, scouts, con-men, gamblers, smugglers, acrobats, swashbucklers, etc. D&D's thief (and rogue) class has always committed the cardinal sin of giving rogues a role, and then allowing them to suck at it. Too often, the nature of the skill system (or % system) meant low level skill characters failed far more often then they succeeded (akin to a fighter who could only hit typical monsters on a 15+). To add insult to injury, magical means of duplicating these skills were automatically successful, making them highly valuable. And at low levels where a rogue could contribute to combat (addding in occasional strong blows) the backstab rules were so confining as to make them worthless, and SA was so good they had to cripple it by making it only work some of the time. IMHO, a good rogue class (system independent) should do the following. 1.) Have the widest (and best) chance of succeeding at skill-use. A rogue should be able to climb a wall, sneak down a hall, and listen at a door with a reasonable chance of success at low levels, his abilities to sneak, con, and such should rival magic at high-levels. (Bluffs so good they border on charm magic, hiding so good he's practically invisible) While everyone else can climb a cliff, I want the rogue waiting at the top, eating a sandwich, yelling "come on you guys, hurry up." 2.) A rogue shouldn't need to rely on magic (be it magical items or some innate talent with it) to do his job. Magic should enhance his abilities, not replace it. 3.) If cornered, a rogue should have abilities to misdirect, confuse, and outwit his foes with dexterity, panache, and bravado. Avoiding hazards with an almost sixth-sense like ability. While a fighter can anticipate a battle and a wizard knows a magical aura when he see's it, a rogue can sense trouble long ago and has focused his abilities to avoid or confront it. 4.) When all else fails, he's good at skirmishing combat. Standing in one place trading blows is a fighter's job, he should excel a landing occasional strong blows to unsuspecting foes (occasional being key), ducking and weaving in combat to strike at foes, and mostly picking off stragglers, wizards, and other "squishies". Against an goblin or guard, he can hold his own a bit. Against an ogre or dragon, he better run behind the fighter! All versions of D&D rogues promise this, most fail in one regard or another. Mostly, they insist on letting magic trump mundane skill and try to assemble glass-cannon combatants (I'd gladly train 1/2 my SA dice for a d8 HD and 3/4 Bab in 3.5 for example). The problem is exactly what you point out; rogues (in 3.5) ended up Trapfinding melee-fireball attacks, and in previous D&D they were walking lockpicks. If your system makes a "fighter" that can do everything I just outlined above, I'll gladly accept your premise. Otherwise, I want my rogue class! [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Whats the deal with rogues anyway?
Top