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What's the rush? Has the "here and now" been replaced by the "next level" attitude?
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<blockquote data-quote="N'raac" data-source="post: 6287840" data-attributes="member: 6681948"><p>One of the announced intentions of 3rd Ed was to speed up the levelling process. The exponential progression of the xp table in AD&D 1e and 2e meant levelling slowed considerably past the first few levels. By about 9th or 10th, where you refer to the game petering out, levels took a long time to achieve.</p><p></p><p>3e design set a goal of a year's play, IIRC (weekly play, fairly long sessions) to get from L1 to L20 and wrap up the campaign for a new one. We played weekly, 12+hous at a stretch (I remember driving picking up lunch on the way to the game and driving home in the sunrise more than a few times in those Glory Days) and 9th level characters took months to gain a level.</p><p></p><p>It has increased. That was intentional.</p><p></p><p>Its a common criticism (one you have levied pretty often, IIRC) that higher level play fades in balance because it's not as well playtested. To me, that's because few games got there. If the game was really only designed for L 1 - 12, regardless of what was tossed in for higher levels (spells for liches, not for PCs?), the I don't see playing to L12 as "half the game" any more than playing to L18 plays 1/3 as a game "under construction".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>OK, so role playing out of combat, if we award xp for it, suddenly changes from "boring" to "exciting", or at least worthwhile? Such interactions are not automatic success (I've seen many players fail to achieve their desired ends when role playing out of combat) and failure carries consequences (allies are lost, or never recruited, enemies are made, resources are lost or never acquired, etc.). Simply adding "and you earn xp" makes it exciting somehow?</p><p></p><p>To me, that is the single concept that most supports the OP's comment. That which earns xp to advance my character is, by definition, exciting, meaningful and worthwhile. That which does not is dull, boring and should be skipped. So the only focus is, indeed, on advancing the character.</p><p></p><p>By that measure, in 1e, looting was exciting and fun (because I got xp for gold) but in 3e, it's dull and boring (no more xp). Yet I see the opposite - xp coming from treasure meant specific types of games provided for more, or less, advancement. It implied all PC's should be motivated by greed. 3e changed the system, and now more altruistic characters were viable alongside their mercenary forebears, even if all the players wanted was xp and advancement.</p><p></p><p>Now, my players in 1e/2e were motivated by <em><strong>playing their characters</strong></em>. Whether they earned xp or not was irrelevant to their enjoyment of the game. It was a nice side benefit, but that's all it was. The characters could advance rapidly or slowly, and the game stayed fun, week after week. That hasn't changed in 3e/Pathfinder. We advance faster, past the low levels especially. But the game is the fun part, not getting more goodies and writing updated character sheets.</p><p></p><p>Maybe we've been doing it wrong playing the game for intrinsic enjoyment rather than squeezing out every last possible xp. Who knew?</p><p></p><p>Hero Games published one of the best comments on xp and advancement I ever read. Too slow and the characters feel stagnant like they never get any better. Too fast, and they quickly become unrecognizable. Level up every month? That's pretty rapid change, to me. That's every four sessions if we play weekly (and rarely skip a week - 48 a year). Probably workable, but I would not want any faster. And if all we do is play out tactical combat, well sorry, now I'm pretty bored. I brought a <strong><em>character</em></strong> to play, not a game pawn. If all we do is move from one battle to the next, why don't we just play a boardgame. Most of those play out entirely in a single four hour session, maybe two or three for really involved, lengthy games. We get the "whole game" much quicker that way.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="N'raac, post: 6287840, member: 6681948"] One of the announced intentions of 3rd Ed was to speed up the levelling process. The exponential progression of the xp table in AD&D 1e and 2e meant levelling slowed considerably past the first few levels. By about 9th or 10th, where you refer to the game petering out, levels took a long time to achieve. 3e design set a goal of a year's play, IIRC (weekly play, fairly long sessions) to get from L1 to L20 and wrap up the campaign for a new one. We played weekly, 12+hous at a stretch (I remember driving picking up lunch on the way to the game and driving home in the sunrise more than a few times in those Glory Days) and 9th level characters took months to gain a level. It has increased. That was intentional. Its a common criticism (one you have levied pretty often, IIRC) that higher level play fades in balance because it's not as well playtested. To me, that's because few games got there. If the game was really only designed for L 1 - 12, regardless of what was tossed in for higher levels (spells for liches, not for PCs?), the I don't see playing to L12 as "half the game" any more than playing to L18 plays 1/3 as a game "under construction". OK, so role playing out of combat, if we award xp for it, suddenly changes from "boring" to "exciting", or at least worthwhile? Such interactions are not automatic success (I've seen many players fail to achieve their desired ends when role playing out of combat) and failure carries consequences (allies are lost, or never recruited, enemies are made, resources are lost or never acquired, etc.). Simply adding "and you earn xp" makes it exciting somehow? To me, that is the single concept that most supports the OP's comment. That which earns xp to advance my character is, by definition, exciting, meaningful and worthwhile. That which does not is dull, boring and should be skipped. So the only focus is, indeed, on advancing the character. By that measure, in 1e, looting was exciting and fun (because I got xp for gold) but in 3e, it's dull and boring (no more xp). Yet I see the opposite - xp coming from treasure meant specific types of games provided for more, or less, advancement. It implied all PC's should be motivated by greed. 3e changed the system, and now more altruistic characters were viable alongside their mercenary forebears, even if all the players wanted was xp and advancement. Now, my players in 1e/2e were motivated by [I][B]playing their characters[/B][/I]. Whether they earned xp or not was irrelevant to their enjoyment of the game. It was a nice side benefit, but that's all it was. The characters could advance rapidly or slowly, and the game stayed fun, week after week. That hasn't changed in 3e/Pathfinder. We advance faster, past the low levels especially. But the game is the fun part, not getting more goodies and writing updated character sheets. Maybe we've been doing it wrong playing the game for intrinsic enjoyment rather than squeezing out every last possible xp. Who knew? Hero Games published one of the best comments on xp and advancement I ever read. Too slow and the characters feel stagnant like they never get any better. Too fast, and they quickly become unrecognizable. Level up every month? That's pretty rapid change, to me. That's every four sessions if we play weekly (and rarely skip a week - 48 a year). Probably workable, but I would not want any faster. And if all we do is play out tactical combat, well sorry, now I'm pretty bored. I brought a [B][I]character[/I][/B] to play, not a game pawn. If all we do is move from one battle to the next, why don't we just play a boardgame. Most of those play out entirely in a single four hour session, maybe two or three for really involved, lengthy games. We get the "whole game" much quicker that way. [/QUOTE]
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What's the rush? Has the "here and now" been replaced by the "next level" attitude?
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