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"when circumstances are appropriate for hiding"
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<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7235146" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p>I'm not saying it's a good definition of hidden. It just happens to be one of the definitions provided. </p><p></p><p>I do agree with you, though, that many times, being undetected is the defining feature of being hidden. You've snuck into a wizard's chamber unnoticed, and go from there, for example. Being undetected can also give you certain situational advantages, although it doesn't in and of itself have a mechanical rule tied to it.</p><p></p><p>There are really (at least) two sometimes overlapping definitions of hidden used in the rules.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Of course. You were <em>hidden from view</em>.</p><p></p><p>But really, when players are considering the hidden condition in the circumstance of hiding behind a rock, usually it's because they are looking for a mechanical advantage. They aren't trying to suddenly be undetected. They're pretty sure that they know that the other creature knows where they are. They want to get advantage on their next attack since they were hidden.</p><p></p><p>In addition, the hiding rules support the rock in the field concept. You can "hide" behind the rock, and then roll a Stealth check to see if you can be "hidden." </p><p></p><p>But once again, I'm not really concerned about parsing the multiple definitions of hidden. I'm just concerned about the mechanical (if any) benefits of being "hidden" as defined in the rules, and really, determining whether a given circumstance would potentially give an advantage.</p><p></p><p>Personally, I think being fully concealed by cover, with the target not knowing exactly where you might pop out and when, <em>might</em> give you advantage. And I think a Stealth check with situational modifiers is a reasonable way to determine that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>OK, so it's always active except for noted exceptions. Kind of a given with the rules as a whole. For example, it's not active when you're petrified either, whether the rules state it or not.</p><p></p><p>Having said that, I'm not sure where it says if they're using their awareness for something else that it doesn't apply. Regardless, I much prefer giving them disadvantage, or even a larger penalty, to it not functioning at all when they are conscious.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why not you're in plain view, a distraction is created, and when they turn back you've disappeared? As long as they aren't looking at you for that moment in time where you hide behind the plant, the column, the furniture, or other potential hiding places. That goes back to what I started with - the circumstances matter, and I rely on the players to provide some of that reasoning. Simply because I might not think of everything.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, since it's the group attempting something, I think it's perfectly reasonable to invoke the Group Checks rule. I kind of read "don't contribute ... to the <strong>group's chance</strong> of noticing hidden threats" to imply the use of the Group Checks rule.</p><p></p><p>Of course, as the rules state, it's up to the DM to determine whether he asks for a group check or not.</p><p></p><p>I do agree that somebody being distracted or focused on something else may very well miss something obvious. But I'm not a fan or automatic success or failure, and I don't think the chance of failure in that circumstance is always 100% anyway.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 7235146, member: 6778044"] I'm not saying it's a good definition of hidden. It just happens to be one of the definitions provided. I do agree with you, though, that many times, being undetected is the defining feature of being hidden. You've snuck into a wizard's chamber unnoticed, and go from there, for example. Being undetected can also give you certain situational advantages, although it doesn't in and of itself have a mechanical rule tied to it. There are really (at least) two sometimes overlapping definitions of hidden used in the rules. Of course. You were [I]hidden from view[/I]. But really, when players are considering the hidden condition in the circumstance of hiding behind a rock, usually it's because they are looking for a mechanical advantage. They aren't trying to suddenly be undetected. They're pretty sure that they know that the other creature knows where they are. They want to get advantage on their next attack since they were hidden. In addition, the hiding rules support the rock in the field concept. You can "hide" behind the rock, and then roll a Stealth check to see if you can be "hidden." But once again, I'm not really concerned about parsing the multiple definitions of hidden. I'm just concerned about the mechanical (if any) benefits of being "hidden" as defined in the rules, and really, determining whether a given circumstance would potentially give an advantage. Personally, I think being fully concealed by cover, with the target not knowing exactly where you might pop out and when, [I]might[/I] give you advantage. And I think a Stealth check with situational modifiers is a reasonable way to determine that. OK, so it's always active except for noted exceptions. Kind of a given with the rules as a whole. For example, it's not active when you're petrified either, whether the rules state it or not. Having said that, I'm not sure where it says if they're using their awareness for something else that it doesn't apply. Regardless, I much prefer giving them disadvantage, or even a larger penalty, to it not functioning at all when they are conscious. Why not you're in plain view, a distraction is created, and when they turn back you've disappeared? As long as they aren't looking at you for that moment in time where you hide behind the plant, the column, the furniture, or other potential hiding places. That goes back to what I started with - the circumstances matter, and I rely on the players to provide some of that reasoning. Simply because I might not think of everything. Well, since it's the group attempting something, I think it's perfectly reasonable to invoke the Group Checks rule. I kind of read "don't contribute ... to the [B]group's chance[/B] of noticing hidden threats" to imply the use of the Group Checks rule. Of course, as the rules state, it's up to the DM to determine whether he asks for a group check or not. I do agree that somebody being distracted or focused on something else may very well miss something obvious. But I'm not a fan or automatic success or failure, and I don't think the chance of failure in that circumstance is always 100% anyway. [/QUOTE]
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