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*Pathfinder & Starfinder
When did the Fighter become "defender"?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 5908325" data-attributes="member: 95493"><p>I normally don't do this, but I felt you deserved your own response.</p><p></p><p>My post wasn't about whether or not I was included in the masses you were talking to. It wasn't even about disagreeing with your post. I DO happen to think that the way many ideas were presented was immediately an issue for people when first approaching the game. I also think that there are countless other reasons for not trying it beyond the first look.</p><p></p><p>Silly arguments about what defenders mean, or if the fighter is a bodyguard are really not as important as the core ideas of how the power system works, or the overly balanced classes, the AEDU format, healing surges, second winds, the recategorization of classes by roles, and so on.</p><p></p><p>I don't know if you point was this too but the way the stat blocks looked was a turn off for me, and others I know. As I said before, many of the ideas were foreign to me and struck me as odd or not how the game should be played. I can't be alone in this view at all.</p><p></p><p>Pointing out examples and quotes from the books really have nothing to do with perception, which I think is your point. I will certainly agree that for some it doesn't matter how much or how hard you argue the correct thing they will never be convinced. But I also think it doesn't matter how long healing surges are explained and re-explained to people, or how clearly, if they dislike the idea they aren't going to change their mind. Similarly if they change the term to heroic surges and put them back into 5e I won't be happy. I never had a problem with calling the default fighter a defender. I had a problem with all fighters being limited to this role. I never had a problem with in-combat healing, I had a problem with the WAY it was done. I know I didn't give 4e as much of a chance as it perhaps deserved, but that had to do with many of my issues with WotC not listening to my perceived demographic and discontinuing support. It had very little to do with how the ideas were presented. IF it had been as simple as not liking the concepts on first blush then I am certain that I probably would have come around by now, PF or not. But I know, and have said, that the more I read about 4e the more I dislike it. At this point it has nothing to do with perceived slights or issues, it has to do with legitimate ones.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tovec, post: 5908325, member: 95493"] I normally don't do this, but I felt you deserved your own response. My post wasn't about whether or not I was included in the masses you were talking to. It wasn't even about disagreeing with your post. I DO happen to think that the way many ideas were presented was immediately an issue for people when first approaching the game. I also think that there are countless other reasons for not trying it beyond the first look. Silly arguments about what defenders mean, or if the fighter is a bodyguard are really not as important as the core ideas of how the power system works, or the overly balanced classes, the AEDU format, healing surges, second winds, the recategorization of classes by roles, and so on. I don't know if you point was this too but the way the stat blocks looked was a turn off for me, and others I know. As I said before, many of the ideas were foreign to me and struck me as odd or not how the game should be played. I can't be alone in this view at all. Pointing out examples and quotes from the books really have nothing to do with perception, which I think is your point. I will certainly agree that for some it doesn't matter how much or how hard you argue the correct thing they will never be convinced. But I also think it doesn't matter how long healing surges are explained and re-explained to people, or how clearly, if they dislike the idea they aren't going to change their mind. Similarly if they change the term to heroic surges and put them back into 5e I won't be happy. I never had a problem with calling the default fighter a defender. I had a problem with all fighters being limited to this role. I never had a problem with in-combat healing, I had a problem with the WAY it was done. I know I didn't give 4e as much of a chance as it perhaps deserved, but that had to do with many of my issues with WotC not listening to my perceived demographic and discontinuing support. It had very little to do with how the ideas were presented. IF it had been as simple as not liking the concepts on first blush then I am certain that I probably would have come around by now, PF or not. But I know, and have said, that the more I read about 4e the more I dislike it. At this point it has nothing to do with perceived slights or issues, it has to do with legitimate ones. [/QUOTE]
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When did the Fighter become "defender"?
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