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When did the Fighter become "defender"?
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5908353" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>I've asked you already to tell me what bufs there were on the fighter. Because I've seen claims like this before. Last time I saw it, the buffs included Enlarge Person, Polymorph Any Object, Haste, Heroism, and several others. It therefore turned out that 75% of the damage being done by the fighter was actually thanks to the casters.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why was the construct the real challenge? You're giving me anecdote and I want data. Every time I've investigated anecdotes like this the data turns out to show other things.</p><p></p><p>Give me math. Give me builds. Give me numbers.</p><p></p><p>Because if the cleric was behaving as a healbot then you were right. That's a weak way to play the cleric. If the fighter was buffed to the nines, then you were allocating the effect of a whole pile of spells to the fighter.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>4e does allow clerics to use bows. What it doesn't do is reward clerics for using bows. Your understanding that the bow is not a choice at all is simply wrong. (That you'd have been stuck with ranged basic attacks unless you used multiclass feats to poach ranger powers is another matter).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ding, dong, the witch is dead. "Magic-guy" isn't a role. It's a catchall that describes absolutely nothing. Healer-guy was a trap. Skills-guy was another trap. And 'Defender' is exactly why you needed a fighter. </p><p></p><p>For that matter this was close top the 2e situation.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You mean you can't use a high enough level of diplomacy for near-automatic mind control? Cry me a river. Also 4e doesn't make skills <em>irrelevant</em> with the right spell. It's just a rules-light system.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5908353, member: 87792"] I've asked you already to tell me what bufs there were on the fighter. Because I've seen claims like this before. Last time I saw it, the buffs included Enlarge Person, Polymorph Any Object, Haste, Heroism, and several others. It therefore turned out that 75% of the damage being done by the fighter was actually thanks to the casters. Why was the construct the real challenge? You're giving me anecdote and I want data. Every time I've investigated anecdotes like this the data turns out to show other things. Give me math. Give me builds. Give me numbers. Because if the cleric was behaving as a healbot then you were right. That's a weak way to play the cleric. If the fighter was buffed to the nines, then you were allocating the effect of a whole pile of spells to the fighter. 4e does allow clerics to use bows. What it doesn't do is reward clerics for using bows. Your understanding that the bow is not a choice at all is simply wrong. (That you'd have been stuck with ranged basic attacks unless you used multiclass feats to poach ranger powers is another matter). Ding, dong, the witch is dead. "Magic-guy" isn't a role. It's a catchall that describes absolutely nothing. Healer-guy was a trap. Skills-guy was another trap. And 'Defender' is exactly why you needed a fighter. For that matter this was close top the 2e situation. You mean you can't use a high enough level of diplomacy for near-automatic mind control? Cry me a river. Also 4e doesn't make skills [I]irrelevant[/I] with the right spell. It's just a rules-light system. [/QUOTE]
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When did the Fighter become "defender"?
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