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When did the Fighter become "defender"?
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5908365" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>OK. I'll have one more attempt. I've already demonstrated that you are wrong about 4e. Now for older editions:</p><p></p><p>From the 1e PHB - the first two paragraphs about the fighter</p><p style="margin-left: 20px">The principal attribute of a fighter is strength. To become a fighter, a character must have a minimum strength of 9 and a constitution of 7 or greater. A good dexterity rating is also highly desirable. If a fighter has strength above 15, he or she adds 10% to experience points awarded by the DM. Also, high strength gives the fighter a better chance to hit an opponent and causes an increased amount of damage.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Fighters have a ten-sided die (d10) for determination of their hit points per level. No other class of character (save the paladin and ranger (qq.v.) subclasses of fighters) is so strong in this regard. Fighters ore the strongest of characters in regards to sheer physical strength, and they are the best at hand-to-hand combat. Any sort of armor or weapon is usable by fighters. Fighters may be of any alignment — good or evil, lawful or chaotic, or neutral.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p>So a fighter's toughness is mentioned before anything to do with damage. FACT. They only did fractionally more melee damage than clerics or even thieves unless you'd lucked out with a natural 18 on strength. FACT. </p><p></p><p>You are retconning 1e out of existance. <em>Unearthed Arcana</em> was when fighters stopped being meatshields and gained Weapon Specialisation. FACT. Now it was different in 2e. That I will grant.</p><p></p><p>Now for your 3.X misconception about rogues:</p><p></p><p></p><p>From the 3.5 SRD:</p><p style="margin-left: 20px">The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#flanking" target="_blank">flanks</a> her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits" target="_blank">critical hit</a> with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p>A high damage rogue in 3.5 actually could and did outdamage a fighter. The trick was quite simple. Flank them and then get as many sneak attacks as possible - the fighter's damage didn't scale at anything near the rate to overcome two-weapon ginsu except at low levels. And yes, daggers are rogue weapons, as are shortswords.</p><p></p><p>Of course there were issues in relying on full attacks... But the core trick for a 3.5 rogue was to make sneak attack reliable. In 3.5 the rogue was a <em>striker</em> - with damage that scaled far faster than in 4e.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5908365, member: 87792"] OK. I'll have one more attempt. I've already demonstrated that you are wrong about 4e. Now for older editions: From the 1e PHB - the first two paragraphs about the fighter [INDENT]The principal attribute of a fighter is strength. To become a fighter, a character must have a minimum strength of 9 and a constitution of 7 or greater. A good dexterity rating is also highly desirable. If a fighter has strength above 15, he or she adds 10% to experience points awarded by the DM. Also, high strength gives the fighter a better chance to hit an opponent and causes an increased amount of damage. Fighters have a ten-sided die (d10) for determination of their hit points per level. No other class of character (save the paladin and ranger (qq.v.) subclasses of fighters) is so strong in this regard. Fighters ore the strongest of characters in regards to sheer physical strength, and they are the best at hand-to-hand combat. Any sort of armor or weapon is usable by fighters. Fighters may be of any alignment — good or evil, lawful or chaotic, or neutral. [/INDENT] So a fighter's toughness is mentioned before anything to do with damage. FACT. They only did fractionally more melee damage than clerics or even thieves unless you'd lucked out with a natural 18 on strength. FACT. You are retconning 1e out of existance. [I]Unearthed Arcana[/I] was when fighters stopped being meatshields and gained Weapon Specialisation. FACT. Now it was different in 2e. That I will grant. Now for your 3.X misconception about rogues: From the 3.5 SRD: [INDENT]The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#flanking"]flanks[/URL] her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits"]critical hit[/URL] with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. [/INDENT]A high damage rogue in 3.5 actually could and did outdamage a fighter. The trick was quite simple. Flank them and then get as many sneak attacks as possible - the fighter's damage didn't scale at anything near the rate to overcome two-weapon ginsu except at low levels. And yes, daggers are rogue weapons, as are shortswords. Of course there were issues in relying on full attacks... But the core trick for a 3.5 rogue was to make sneak attack reliable. In 3.5 the rogue was a [I]striker[/I] - with damage that scaled far faster than in 4e. [/QUOTE]
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