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When did the Fighter become "defender"?
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<blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 5908416"><p>I just finished a 3.5 game. We ended at 17th level. Aside from the usual rogue stuff, this player did two things really well:</p><p>1: stealth</p><p>2: sneak attack.</p><p></p><p>Now, provided we weren't fighting a creature that was immune to sneak attack, this guy was doing about 8d6 per attack at range.</p><p></p><p>A fighter at 17th level will have 5 iterative attacks, 17/12/7/2, assuming they have a +5 weapon of speed, they've got 6 attacks @ 22/22/17/12/7. If they are dual-wielding light weapons(assuming a 20 dex, 20 str build with weapon finesse ala Drizzt) they're looking at 25/25/20/15/10 with each hand.</p><p></p><p>Now, beyond this point we're getting into serious class optimization builds.</p><p></p><p>At level 17 we were fighting things that had around a 35 AC, at this point the fighter has about a 50/50 chance to hit, at least with his first 2 attacks with each hand(total 4), 25% chance for the next set, and a 5%*natural 20 only) on everything else.</p><p></p><p>With dual-wield what say, scimitars, we're doing 1d8+5+dex, so, max 18 damage, average 14. With a 50% chance to hit with his best attacks that's an average of 28 damage. On his next attacks, which he only has 2 of we have an average of 14, and on his last attack, which he needs a natural 20 on, we can probably just ignore.(max damage would be 18, but averaged in on a 5% chance would only be something like .9 damage)</p><p></p><p>This is a fairly basic build, none of the nifty tricks Pathfinder gives a fighter, so we'd be looking at an average of 43 damage per turn.</p><p></p><p>The rogue on the other hand, assuming they've got good stealth and can get their sneak attack bonus, is looking at somewhere along the lines of 40 damage per sneak attack. I vaguely recall him being able to sneak attack about 4 times per turn(dual-wield iterative attacks, yay!). So even on average, the rogue is doing an average of 120 damage per turn.</p><p></p><p>The sorcerer then blasts for 80-150, the cleric casts destruction for 150, half if saved. My ranger dropped out some 60-120 damage per round and out paladin was pulling a good 60-80.</p><p></p><p>So I really don't know about you, but the Fighter has NEVER been a high-damager unless you go to stupid levels of optimization. Every other class? You just run 'em as is and they nuke, yeah, even the rogue(assuming they can sneak attack). </p><p></p><p>SO yeah, no. Fighter's are pretty much out-damaged by nearly every class in the game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sunseeker, post: 5908416"] I just finished a 3.5 game. We ended at 17th level. Aside from the usual rogue stuff, this player did two things really well: 1: stealth 2: sneak attack. Now, provided we weren't fighting a creature that was immune to sneak attack, this guy was doing about 8d6 per attack at range. A fighter at 17th level will have 5 iterative attacks, 17/12/7/2, assuming they have a +5 weapon of speed, they've got 6 attacks @ 22/22/17/12/7. If they are dual-wielding light weapons(assuming a 20 dex, 20 str build with weapon finesse ala Drizzt) they're looking at 25/25/20/15/10 with each hand. Now, beyond this point we're getting into serious class optimization builds. At level 17 we were fighting things that had around a 35 AC, at this point the fighter has about a 50/50 chance to hit, at least with his first 2 attacks with each hand(total 4), 25% chance for the next set, and a 5%*natural 20 only) on everything else. With dual-wield what say, scimitars, we're doing 1d8+5+dex, so, max 18 damage, average 14. With a 50% chance to hit with his best attacks that's an average of 28 damage. On his next attacks, which he only has 2 of we have an average of 14, and on his last attack, which he needs a natural 20 on, we can probably just ignore.(max damage would be 18, but averaged in on a 5% chance would only be something like .9 damage) This is a fairly basic build, none of the nifty tricks Pathfinder gives a fighter, so we'd be looking at an average of 43 damage per turn. The rogue on the other hand, assuming they've got good stealth and can get their sneak attack bonus, is looking at somewhere along the lines of 40 damage per sneak attack. I vaguely recall him being able to sneak attack about 4 times per turn(dual-wield iterative attacks, yay!). So even on average, the rogue is doing an average of 120 damage per turn. The sorcerer then blasts for 80-150, the cleric casts destruction for 150, half if saved. My ranger dropped out some 60-120 damage per round and out paladin was pulling a good 60-80. So I really don't know about you, but the Fighter has NEVER been a high-damager unless you go to stupid levels of optimization. Every other class? You just run 'em as is and they nuke, yeah, even the rogue(assuming they can sneak attack). SO yeah, no. Fighter's are pretty much out-damaged by nearly every class in the game. [/QUOTE]
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When did the Fighter become "defender"?
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