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When Fiends Attack: Are Balors, Pit Fiends and Ultraloths too weak?
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<blockquote data-quote="Charles Rampant" data-source="post: 7007356" data-attributes="member: 32659"><p>Friends, Roleplayers, Dungeon Masters, </p><p></p><p>I was reading the very interesting thread about <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?518883-Balor-vs-Pit-Fiend" target="_blank">Balor vs Pit Fiend</a>, and though I couldn't contribute to the intense DPR calculations being made, I found the a minor point in discussion worth spinning out into its own topic. In short, the calculations being made were whether a group of (simple) 9th level characters with potent but minimal magical items could beat a Balor or Pit Fiend in a straight up fight. Now, setting aside the (fairly understandable) decisions made about the party makeup, we get the somewhat startling idea that a Balor will lose to those five 9th level Champions in virtually every fight, assuming that it just stands there and attacks. The Pit Fiend does a lot better, winning 90%. I'm using [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION]'s numbers here, always a poster handy with the maths. This is before we begin discussing the Ultraloth, who is tailored as much more of an infiltrator, and is <em>very</em> underwhelming if you're expecting him to put the fear of the Yugoloths into a party. </p><p></p><p>So, that's the preamble: players apparently have a solid chance while in the second tier of play to take down the most powerful Fiends in the game, outside of demi-powers like the Demon Lords who we can ignore for the moment. My question to you is this: <strong>is this a problem</strong>? </p><p></p><p>I can see two primary responses, which I invite you to challenge or agree with or just shout Lemon Curry at;</p><p> </p><p></p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The game works best, and is most popularly played, between levels 4-10. Letting the players fight anything in that level range - including Pit Fiends - lets them have any kind of monster as the BBEG for a storyline, adventure, or campaign. It lets the entire contents of the Monster Manual be useful for any group, and reflects actual campaign needs rather than plot concerns which are easy to explain.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Ultra-powerful enemies like the leaders of Fiend factions should be terrifyingly dangerous. They should only be faced by the most powerful of groups. In addition, it makes no sense that a Balor can be killed by mid-level adventurers, since it means that they cannot be the 'scourge of worlds' or whatever; any decent sized town could probably kill one.</li> </ol><p></p><p>It's worth noting that many other creatures in the game could be included in the discussion - Strahd does not seem able to kill one hundred adventurers, to be honest, unless they were all level two. Furthermore, we could draw minions into the discussion, but I'd like to focus attention on the boss level Fiends for the moment, rather than rely on having a three-hour swarm combat for a boss encounter. I'm interested in the <em>philosophy</em> of high level Fiends here: is their weakness a problem for the game, or something that enables players to face them when you want them to?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Charles Rampant, post: 7007356, member: 32659"] Friends, Roleplayers, Dungeon Masters, I was reading the very interesting thread about [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?518883-Balor-vs-Pit-Fiend"]Balor vs Pit Fiend[/URL], and though I couldn't contribute to the intense DPR calculations being made, I found the a minor point in discussion worth spinning out into its own topic. In short, the calculations being made were whether a group of (simple) 9th level characters with potent but minimal magical items could beat a Balor or Pit Fiend in a straight up fight. Now, setting aside the (fairly understandable) decisions made about the party makeup, we get the somewhat startling idea that a Balor will lose to those five 9th level Champions in virtually every fight, assuming that it just stands there and attacks. The Pit Fiend does a lot better, winning 90%. I'm using [MENTION=6787650]Hemlock[/MENTION]'s numbers here, always a poster handy with the maths. This is before we begin discussing the Ultraloth, who is tailored as much more of an infiltrator, and is [i]very[/i] underwhelming if you're expecting him to put the fear of the Yugoloths into a party. So, that's the preamble: players apparently have a solid chance while in the second tier of play to take down the most powerful Fiends in the game, outside of demi-powers like the Demon Lords who we can ignore for the moment. My question to you is this: [b]is this a problem[/b]? I can see two primary responses, which I invite you to challenge or agree with or just shout Lemon Curry at; [LIST=1] [*]The game works best, and is most popularly played, between levels 4-10. Letting the players fight anything in that level range - including Pit Fiends - lets them have any kind of monster as the BBEG for a storyline, adventure, or campaign. It lets the entire contents of the Monster Manual be useful for any group, and reflects actual campaign needs rather than plot concerns which are easy to explain. [*]Ultra-powerful enemies like the leaders of Fiend factions should be terrifyingly dangerous. They should only be faced by the most powerful of groups. In addition, it makes no sense that a Balor can be killed by mid-level adventurers, since it means that they cannot be the 'scourge of worlds' or whatever; any decent sized town could probably kill one. [/LIST] It's worth noting that many other creatures in the game could be included in the discussion - Strahd does not seem able to kill one hundred adventurers, to be honest, unless they were all level two. Furthermore, we could draw minions into the discussion, but I'd like to focus attention on the boss level Fiends for the moment, rather than rely on having a three-hour swarm combat for a boss encounter. I'm interested in the [i]philosophy[/i] of high level Fiends here: is their weakness a problem for the game, or something that enables players to face them when you want them to? [/QUOTE]
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