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When Fiends Attack: Are Balors, Pit Fiends and Ultraloths too weak?
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<blockquote data-quote="Dualazi" data-source="post: 7007360" data-attributes="member: 6855537"><p>It's been pretty well beaten into the ground discussion-wise round these parts I think, that it's very easy to bring down higher level foes as a result of action economy differences. Since Pit Fiends and Balors have neither legendary actions nor lair actions, there's really no way for them to equalize this discrepancy.</p><p></p><p>It's also been (fairly) well documented here and on the defunct wizards forums that a lot of the listed CRs in the MM are higher than they should be. In a recent thread about monster design, a discussion of the Ogre and Bandit Captain revealed a stark difference in power, with the ogre likely being underpowered for its listed CR.</p><p></p><p>I would argue that this is, in fact, a problem. While I appreciate the wider level range players can engage foes in, the result is as you say, nobody can take a balor seriously as a threat when a group of mid-tier adventurers plow through them, no matter what the expected range of play is. Additionally, the MM itself has been on the receiving end of complains before about a lack of high CR opponents, so having those high end creatures under perform on exacerbates the issue.</p><p></p><p>In truth though, while it is a problem, it's not a BIG problem. In your example, you say that a balor will lose to 5 9th level champions. Okay, what are the chances of a group of players all being champions? I've never witnessed it. Since champions are great at sustained brawling, I'm not really shocked they were able to win, though I might pick through that thread later to see if some concerns I have were addressed. Not only that, but this is also a 5 minute workday issue, where the PCs are at maximum power going into the fight without the expectation or risk of follow-up encounters. </p><p></p><p>At the end of the day, I think 5e typically does boss fights somewhat poorly, and it's easy for even big threats to get swarmed quite easily. You just have to adjust you expectations to the game accordingly and make sure bosses have minions are to help draw fire. Also, Tome of Beasts from Kobold press seems to have succeeded in making their enemies more lethal at similar CR ratings to the foes in the MM, so if you need more dangerous offerings I'd check it out.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dualazi, post: 7007360, member: 6855537"] It's been pretty well beaten into the ground discussion-wise round these parts I think, that it's very easy to bring down higher level foes as a result of action economy differences. Since Pit Fiends and Balors have neither legendary actions nor lair actions, there's really no way for them to equalize this discrepancy. It's also been (fairly) well documented here and on the defunct wizards forums that a lot of the listed CRs in the MM are higher than they should be. In a recent thread about monster design, a discussion of the Ogre and Bandit Captain revealed a stark difference in power, with the ogre likely being underpowered for its listed CR. I would argue that this is, in fact, a problem. While I appreciate the wider level range players can engage foes in, the result is as you say, nobody can take a balor seriously as a threat when a group of mid-tier adventurers plow through them, no matter what the expected range of play is. Additionally, the MM itself has been on the receiving end of complains before about a lack of high CR opponents, so having those high end creatures under perform on exacerbates the issue. In truth though, while it is a problem, it's not a BIG problem. In your example, you say that a balor will lose to 5 9th level champions. Okay, what are the chances of a group of players all being champions? I've never witnessed it. Since champions are great at sustained brawling, I'm not really shocked they were able to win, though I might pick through that thread later to see if some concerns I have were addressed. Not only that, but this is also a 5 minute workday issue, where the PCs are at maximum power going into the fight without the expectation or risk of follow-up encounters. At the end of the day, I think 5e typically does boss fights somewhat poorly, and it's easy for even big threats to get swarmed quite easily. You just have to adjust you expectations to the game accordingly and make sure bosses have minions are to help draw fire. Also, Tome of Beasts from Kobold press seems to have succeeded in making their enemies more lethal at similar CR ratings to the foes in the MM, so if you need more dangerous offerings I'd check it out. [/QUOTE]
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When Fiends Attack: Are Balors, Pit Fiends and Ultraloths too weak?
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