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Where does optimizing end and min-maxing begin? And is min-maxing a bad thing?
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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 7080060" data-attributes="member: 71699"><p>I believe the terms were synonyms in the past - at least over 3rd edition. WotC's CharOp forums used the terms interchangeably, and if you check out this wiki <a href="http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)" target="_blank">http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build</a> you will see that people who epitomised minimaxing treated the terms as synonyms. (The oft-cited optimiser/minimaxer, Tempest Stormwind is referenced as a contributor to that page.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>The "min" part is a bit of a red-herring these days. Minimax was not originally a wargame or RPG term, it was a game theory term relating to decisions made by independent actors given a matrix of payoffs. Maximising potential gains while minimising potential losses leads to strategies which typically settle for less than the largest possible gains in order to avoid the worst possible losses. Following on in that vein, 13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12 is minimaxed because it has the largest bonuses that can be taken while minimising (avoiding altogether) any penalties. However, I think you are saying that under your definition 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8 would be minimaxed because it has the most extreme maximums and minimums. That's quite a departure.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Ah, right! I think you mean to say that optimised is "not-gimped". That really puts roleplay at odds with optimising because any gimped character is automatically not optimised even though it may be roleplayable. I suspect that makes optimising and minimaxing much the same thing in practice, and runs into the problem that brought us here <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>For me, I currently like using "<strong>optimising</strong>" to mean choosing ideal values to match a character concept - including poor values if the character concept is to be inept. While "<strong>minimaxing</strong>" refers to seeking pure mechanical advantage. Thus 13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12 can be "optimal", while not "minimaxed" because it fails to give the greatest mechanical advantage: it wastes points on stats that a given class is unlikely to rely on. A minimaxed character avoids that, and puts the points where they will do the most work, given their class and feat choices.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 7080060, member: 71699"] I believe the terms were synonyms in the past - at least over 3rd edition. WotC's CharOp forums used the terms interchangeably, and if you check out this wiki [URL="http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)"]http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build[/URL] you will see that people who epitomised minimaxing treated the terms as synonyms. (The oft-cited optimiser/minimaxer, Tempest Stormwind is referenced as a contributor to that page.) The "min" part is a bit of a red-herring these days. Minimax was not originally a wargame or RPG term, it was a game theory term relating to decisions made by independent actors given a matrix of payoffs. Maximising potential gains while minimising potential losses leads to strategies which typically settle for less than the largest possible gains in order to avoid the worst possible losses. Following on in that vein, 13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12 is minimaxed because it has the largest bonuses that can be taken while minimising (avoiding altogether) any penalties. However, I think you are saying that under your definition 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8 would be minimaxed because it has the most extreme maximums and minimums. That's quite a departure. Ah, right! I think you mean to say that optimised is "not-gimped". That really puts roleplay at odds with optimising because any gimped character is automatically not optimised even though it may be roleplayable. I suspect that makes optimising and minimaxing much the same thing in practice, and runs into the problem that brought us here :) For me, I currently like using "[B]optimising[/B]" to mean choosing ideal values to match a character concept - including poor values if the character concept is to be inept. While "[B]minimaxing[/B]" refers to seeking pure mechanical advantage. Thus 13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12 can be "optimal", while not "minimaxed" because it fails to give the greatest mechanical advantage: it wastes points on stats that a given class is unlikely to rely on. A minimaxed character avoids that, and puts the points where they will do the most work, given their class and feat choices. [/QUOTE]
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Where does optimizing end and min-maxing begin? And is min-maxing a bad thing?
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