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Who “owns” a PC after the player stops using them?
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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 9282056" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>eh?... It's page 44 & I could have blinked... Where did I<em> (or anyone on the <u>retired/unused</u>-PC=NPC side of the discussion)</em> say something to give an impression I was talking about the GM meat puppeting the player's <em>current</em> PC like some kind of weird GMPC twist like that bold bit implies?</p><p></p><p>Yes it is a thing they are free to do in some other game or while I'm playing some other PC, but that bolded bit I quoted painfully contorts around it. I believe I might be the only one in the thread who has admitted to both encountering problems with someone feeling they "own" a retired PC -and- described those problems in detail in this or the original thread. My problem with the "bob OWNS his retired PC & can force the GM to do things not covered by any d&d book I've described more than once in this thread <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/who-%E2%80%9Cowns%E2%80%9D-a-pc-after-the-player-stops-using-them.702898/post-9280201" target="_blank">(like here)</a>" stance is the idea that bob doesn't need to ensure there is a session zero so he can voice his redflag while simultaneously sandbagging anyone who pushes back against an unreasonable expectation as I've done with two different players over the years.</p><p></p><p>Why does this thread keep jumping away from the discussion to some extreme that pretends this is about the GM giving Bob's <a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/v99gcj/in_case_you_missed_out_on_the_heartwarming_tale/" target="_blank">Blackleaf</a> character to Dave the necromancer or throwing it into a <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/who-%E2%80%9Cowns%E2%80%9D-a-pc-after-the-player-stops-using-them.702898/post-9279310" target="_blank">brothel in Dis <strong>for the lulz</strong></a>. rather than the GM maintaining consistency<strong>☆</strong> in their game world. The GM is well supported to an almost extreme degree in using a notable retired PC in the role it previously established should that come up down the line. Here's just a few sections supporting the GM's use of a former PC as NPC.</p><p></p><p>[spoiler="☆ "]</p><p>5e DMG4:</p><p>PART 1 : MASTER OF WORLDS</p><p>Every OM is the creator of his or her own campaign</p><p>world. Whether you invent a world, adapt a world from</p><p>a favorite movie or novel, or use a published setting for</p><p>the D&D game, you make that world your own over the</p><p>course of a campaign.</p><p>The world where you set your campaign is one of</p><p>countless worlds that make up the D&D multiverse,</p><p>a vast array of planes and worlds where adventures</p><p>happen. Even if you're using an established world such</p><p>as the Forgotten Realms, your campaign takes place</p><p>in a sort of mirror universe of the official setting where</p><p>Forgotten Realms novels, game products, and digital</p><p>games are assumed to take place. The world is yours to</p><p>change as you see fit and yours to modify as you explore</p><p>the consequences of the players' actions.</p><p>Your world is more than just a backdrop for</p><p>adventures. Like Middle Earth, Westerns, and countless</p><p>other fantasy worlds out there, it's a place to which you</p><p>can escape and witness fantastic stories unfold. A well</p><p>designed and well-run world seems to flow around the</p><p>adventurers, so that they feel part of something, instead</p><p>of apart from it.</p><p><strong>Consistency is a key to a believable fictional </strong></p><p><strong>world. When the adventurers go back into town for </strong></p><p><strong>supplies, they should encounter the same nonplayer </strong></p><p><strong>characters (NPCs) they met before. Soon, they'll learn </strong></p><p><strong>the barkeep's name, and he or she will remember </strong></p><p><strong>theirs as well. </strong>Once you have achieved this degree of</p><p>consistency, you can provide an occasional change. If</p><p>the adventurers come back to buy more horses at the</p><p>stables, they might discover that the man who ran the</p><p>place went back home to the large city over the hills,</p><p>and now his niece runs the family business. That sort of</p><p>change-one that has nothing to do with the adventurers</p><p>directly, but one that they'll notice-makes the players</p><p>feel as though their characters are part of a living world</p><p>that changes and grows along with them.</p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p>[spoiler="downtime activities"]</p><p>DOWNTIME ACTIVITIES</p><p>The campaign benefits when characters have time</p><p>between adventures to engage in other activities.</p><p>Allowing days, weeks, or months to pass between</p><p>adventures stretches the campaign over a longer period</p><p>of time and helps to manage the characters' level</p><p>progression, preventing them from gaining too much</p><p>power too quickly.</p><p><strong>Allowing characters to pursue side interests between </strong></p><p><strong>adventures also encourages players to become more </strong></p><p><strong>invested in the campaign world. When a character owns </strong></p><p><strong>a tavern in a village or spends time carousing with the </strong></p><p><strong>locals, that character's player is more likely to respond </strong></p><p><strong>to threats to the village and its inhabitants. </strong></p><p><strong>As your campaign progresses, your players' </strong></p><p><strong>characters will not only become more powerful but also </strong></p><p><strong>more influential and invested in the world. </strong>They might</p><p>be inclined to undertake projects that require more time</p><p>between adventures, such as building and maintaining a</p><p>stronghold. As the party gains levels, you can add more</p><p>downtime between adventures to give characters the</p><p>time they need to pursue such interests. Whereas days</p><p>or weeks might pass between low-level adventures, the</p><p>amount of downtime between higher-level adventures</p><p>might be measured in months or years.</p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p>[spoiler="DMG33 ending a campaign"]</p><p>ENDING A CAMPAIGN</p><p>A campaign's ending should tie up all the threads of</p><p>its beginning and middle, but you don't have to take a</p><p>campaign all the way to 20th level for it to be satisfying.</p><p>Wrap up the campaign whenever your story reaches its</p><p>natural conclusion.</p><p><strong>Make sure you allow space and time near the end </strong></p><p><strong>of your campaign for the characters to finish up any </strong></p><p><strong>personal goals. Their own stories need to end in </strong></p><p><strong>a satisfying way, just as the campaign story does. </strong></p><p>Ideally, some of the characters' individual goals will be</p><p>fulfilled by the ultimate goal of the final adventure. Give</p><p>characters with unfinished goals a chance to finish them</p><p>before the very end.</p><p>Once the campaign has ended, a new one can begin.</p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p></p><p>[spoiler="DMG21 factions & organizations"]</p><p>FACTIONS AND</p><p>ORGANIZATIONS</p><p>Temples, guilds, orders, secret societies, and</p><p>colleges are important forces in the social order of</p><p>any civilization. Their influence might stretch across</p><p>multiple towns and cities, with or without a similarly</p><p>wide-ranging political authority. Organizations can</p><p>play an important part in the lives of player characters,</p><p>becoming their patrons, allies, or enemies just like</p><p>individual nonplayer characters. <strong>When characters join</strong></p><p><strong>these organizations, they become part of something</strong></p><p><strong>larger than themselves, which can give their adventures</strong></p><p><strong>a context in the wider world.</strong></p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p></p><p>Nobody seems to be saying that a player who proactively expresses that they want their character to fade away & never be seen or similar should show up in dis or whatever, but people are actually saying that a player should gain benefit or authority from a PC they are not playing & that the player should not even need to voice that expectation proactively rather than reactively pointing to a cracked & crumbling copyright claim with more problems than just the one you quoted.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 9282056, member: 93670"] eh?... It's page 44 & I could have blinked... Where did I[I] (or anyone on the [U]retired/unused[/U]-PC=NPC side of the discussion)[/I] say something to give an impression I was talking about the GM meat puppeting the player's [I]current[/I] PC like some kind of weird GMPC twist like that bold bit implies? Yes it is a thing they are free to do in some other game or while I'm playing some other PC, but that bolded bit I quoted painfully contorts around it. I believe I might be the only one in the thread who has admitted to both encountering problems with someone feeling they "own" a retired PC -and- described those problems in detail in this or the original thread. My problem with the "bob OWNS his retired PC & can force the GM to do things not covered by any d&d book I've described more than once in this thread [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/who-%E2%80%9Cowns%E2%80%9D-a-pc-after-the-player-stops-using-them.702898/post-9280201'](like here)[/URL]" stance is the idea that bob doesn't need to ensure there is a session zero so he can voice his redflag while simultaneously sandbagging anyone who pushes back against an unreasonable expectation as I've done with two different players over the years. Why does this thread keep jumping away from the discussion to some extreme that pretends this is about the GM giving Bob's [URL='https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/v99gcj/in_case_you_missed_out_on_the_heartwarming_tale/']Blackleaf[/URL] character to Dave the necromancer or throwing it into a [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/who-%E2%80%9Cowns%E2%80%9D-a-pc-after-the-player-stops-using-them.702898/post-9279310']brothel in Dis [B]for the lulz[/B][/URL]. rather than the GM maintaining consistency[B]☆[/B] in their game world. The GM is well supported to an almost extreme degree in using a notable retired PC in the role it previously established should that come up down the line. Here's just a few sections supporting the GM's use of a former PC as NPC. [spoiler="☆ "] 5e DMG4: PART 1 : MASTER OF WORLDS Every OM is the creator of his or her own campaign world. Whether you invent a world, adapt a world from a favorite movie or novel, or use a published setting for the D&D game, you make that world your own over the course of a campaign. The world where you set your campaign is one of countless worlds that make up the D&D multiverse, a vast array of planes and worlds where adventures happen. Even if you're using an established world such as the Forgotten Realms, your campaign takes place in a sort of mirror universe of the official setting where Forgotten Realms novels, game products, and digital games are assumed to take place. The world is yours to change as you see fit and yours to modify as you explore the consequences of the players' actions. Your world is more than just a backdrop for adventures. Like Middle Earth, Westerns, and countless other fantasy worlds out there, it's a place to which you can escape and witness fantastic stories unfold. A well designed and well-run world seems to flow around the adventurers, so that they feel part of something, instead of apart from it. [B]Consistency is a key to a believable fictional world. When the adventurers go back into town for supplies, they should encounter the same nonplayer characters (NPCs) they met before. Soon, they'll learn the barkeep's name, and he or she will remember theirs as well. [/B]Once you have achieved this degree of consistency, you can provide an occasional change. If the adventurers come back to buy more horses at the stables, they might discover that the man who ran the place went back home to the large city over the hills, and now his niece runs the family business. That sort of change-one that has nothing to do with the adventurers directly, but one that they'll notice-makes the players feel as though their characters are part of a living world that changes and grows along with them. [/spoiler] [spoiler="downtime activities"] DOWNTIME ACTIVITIES The campaign benefits when characters have time between adventures to engage in other activities. Allowing days, weeks, or months to pass between adventures stretches the campaign over a longer period of time and helps to manage the characters' level progression, preventing them from gaining too much power too quickly. [B]Allowing characters to pursue side interests between adventures also encourages players to become more invested in the campaign world. When a character owns a tavern in a village or spends time carousing with the locals, that character's player is more likely to respond to threats to the village and its inhabitants. As your campaign progresses, your players' characters will not only become more powerful but also more influential and invested in the world. [/B]They might be inclined to undertake projects that require more time between adventures, such as building and maintaining a stronghold. As the party gains levels, you can add more downtime between adventures to give characters the time they need to pursue such interests. Whereas days or weeks might pass between low-level adventures, the amount of downtime between higher-level adventures might be measured in months or years. [/spoiler] [spoiler="DMG33 ending a campaign"] ENDING A CAMPAIGN A campaign's ending should tie up all the threads of its beginning and middle, but you don't have to take a campaign all the way to 20th level for it to be satisfying. Wrap up the campaign whenever your story reaches its natural conclusion. [B]Make sure you allow space and time near the end of your campaign for the characters to finish up any personal goals. Their own stories need to end in a satisfying way, just as the campaign story does. [/B] Ideally, some of the characters' individual goals will be fulfilled by the ultimate goal of the final adventure. Give characters with unfinished goals a chance to finish them before the very end. Once the campaign has ended, a new one can begin. [/spoiler] [spoiler="DMG21 factions & organizations"] FACTIONS AND ORGANIZATIONS Temples, guilds, orders, secret societies, and colleges are important forces in the social order of any civilization. Their influence might stretch across multiple towns and cities, with or without a similarly wide-ranging political authority. Organizations can play an important part in the lives of player characters, becoming their patrons, allies, or enemies just like individual nonplayer characters. [B]When characters join these organizations, they become part of something larger than themselves, which can give their adventures a context in the wider world.[/B] [/spoiler] Nobody seems to be saying that a player who proactively expresses that they want their character to fade away & never be seen or similar should show up in dis or whatever, but people are actually saying that a player should gain benefit or authority from a PC they are not playing & that the player should not even need to voice that expectation proactively rather than reactively pointing to a cracked & crumbling copyright claim with more problems than just the one you quoted. [/QUOTE]
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