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Why are undead immune to mind-affecting effects?
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<blockquote data-quote="Voadam" data-source="post: 4822277" data-attributes="member: 2209"><p>I was following you for a little while but this seems to get squidgy here when you define souls.</p><p></p><p>You say you must not confuse minds and souls and these are different real things in D&D. Minds are thoughts and emotions, the ability to think, feel, be conscious, and imagine. Yet you say the soul is experience and identity. These are not part of mind? A collection of experiences is not part of thinking and consciousness? Identity is not part of consciousness? Are choices made by the mind or the soul in a person?</p><p></p><p>I'm trying to think why you come up with that definition of souls for D&D cosmology.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A soul without a mind lacks what? The ability to think, feel, be conscious, to imagine? Are you saying intelligent undead cannot think, be conscious or imagine?</p><p></p><p>These are not mindless creatures. That is a separate quality for things like animated dead and most constructs.</p><p></p><p>If they don't have minds this leaves a gap for what fills these functions that they perform. </p><p></p><p>Does the animating negative energy provide their consciousness, thoughts, and imagination, their mental ability scores? </p><p></p><p>You say an elemental is a soul given a body. A non-mindless corporeal undead seems to be the same thing, a soul given a body.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Things seem to be getting mushier. Isn't longing an emotion and therefore a mind thing? What does the soul of a vampire have to do with concepts our minds make up if vampires etc. are souls without minds? Are you saying they can only remember emotions and thoughts and consciousness and not actually have them? However thoughts and consciousness seem to be a necessity for a sentient undead and emotions are typical.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I've never had Trap the Soul come up before but do undead have life forces to be affected as per the spell? What difference does it make under the spell description whether you are talking about a vampire with intelligence and a soul or an animated skeleton without either? The target is simply one creature. The effect is to put its life force and material body in a gem.</p><p></p><p>But to get back to your big point:</p><p></p><p>So Plants have minds but no nervous system or chemical stimulation in the usual human sense. They have minds but different ones and so are unaffected by mind affecting magics.</p><p></p><p>Elementals and lantern archons, in contrast, have minds despite being animate material or glowing balls of holy light. Despite having no nervous system or chemical stimulation in the human sense they can be controlled by mind affecting magic that treants can not be.</p><p></p><p>And undead have no minds (though they can do everything a mind can do) though they are not mindless. And this is because their bodies are dead and they therefore do not feel anything? Their thinking and feeling is not done by their mind but by the unnatural animating force for them.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>If there is a creature with a soul but not a mind what does it lose besides the ability to be affected by mind-affecting spells?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Voadam, post: 4822277, member: 2209"] I was following you for a little while but this seems to get squidgy here when you define souls. You say you must not confuse minds and souls and these are different real things in D&D. Minds are thoughts and emotions, the ability to think, feel, be conscious, and imagine. Yet you say the soul is experience and identity. These are not part of mind? A collection of experiences is not part of thinking and consciousness? Identity is not part of consciousness? Are choices made by the mind or the soul in a person? I'm trying to think why you come up with that definition of souls for D&D cosmology. A soul without a mind lacks what? The ability to think, feel, be conscious, to imagine? Are you saying intelligent undead cannot think, be conscious or imagine? These are not mindless creatures. That is a separate quality for things like animated dead and most constructs. If they don't have minds this leaves a gap for what fills these functions that they perform. Does the animating negative energy provide their consciousness, thoughts, and imagination, their mental ability scores? You say an elemental is a soul given a body. A non-mindless corporeal undead seems to be the same thing, a soul given a body. Things seem to be getting mushier. Isn't longing an emotion and therefore a mind thing? What does the soul of a vampire have to do with concepts our minds make up if vampires etc. are souls without minds? Are you saying they can only remember emotions and thoughts and consciousness and not actually have them? However thoughts and consciousness seem to be a necessity for a sentient undead and emotions are typical. I've never had Trap the Soul come up before but do undead have life forces to be affected as per the spell? What difference does it make under the spell description whether you are talking about a vampire with intelligence and a soul or an animated skeleton without either? The target is simply one creature. The effect is to put its life force and material body in a gem. But to get back to your big point: So Plants have minds but no nervous system or chemical stimulation in the usual human sense. They have minds but different ones and so are unaffected by mind affecting magics. Elementals and lantern archons, in contrast, have minds despite being animate material or glowing balls of holy light. Despite having no nervous system or chemical stimulation in the human sense they can be controlled by mind affecting magic that treants can not be. And undead have no minds (though they can do everything a mind can do) though they are not mindless. And this is because their bodies are dead and they therefore do not feel anything? Their thinking and feeling is not done by their mind but by the unnatural animating force for them. If there is a creature with a soul but not a mind what does it lose besides the ability to be affected by mind-affecting spells? [/QUOTE]
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Why are undead immune to mind-affecting effects?
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