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Why Aren't Designers Using The GUMSHOE System?
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<blockquote data-quote="werecorpse" data-source="post: 7688627" data-attributes="member: 55491"><p>I am not a game designer and I haven't played much gumshoe but here are my thoughts on the system.</p><p>I agree that many systems are designed with a non-trivial chance of failure to find an important clue but you don't need a whole new system to change this. Instead just adjust your favourite system slightly and it's all good. In the example you give of testing the blood for silver the party has to notice/pay attention to the blood (auto success based on play action) have the skill (player design) and ask to use the skill. In D20 you simply make the DC for using chemistry to discover the silver in the blood 0. That's the whole investigative system done. You don't need a whole new system to do that just a different attitude to making clues available. </p><p>If you want to make it a bit more complicated maybe have </p><p>DC 0 (success but problem) the blood has silver but you botched the test so it takes 4 hours to find out </p><p>DC 10 (simple success) the blood has silver and it takes half an hour to find out </p><p>DC 20 (great success) the blood has silver and traces of chloroform and it takes a half hour to find out</p><p></p><p>Now I agree with the philosophy behind the system which is along the lines of "if it's important for the players to be able to find something don't leave it up to the dice to decide if they do" but this is just an issue of poor adventure design not game design. All those dungeons with important rooms behind secret doors you are meant to find to have more fun. Madness.</p><p></p><p>I have read and tried to absorb the Gumshoe philosophy (again I am still no aficionado) and I do think it's clever so when I run these dungeons I decide if the door is a bonus or a necessary lead. If it leads to a secret treasure room that's not that important I might leave a chance of failure but otherwise my secret door location chart is more like</p><p>Perception DC</p><p>0 after 10 minutes of loud searching you discover a section of the wall is hollow with a corridor behind, you can't figure out how to open it but you could probably force it open (door found, negative consequence of time and noise)</p><p>20 after a few minutes searching you find a secret door, it appears to be able to be opened by pushing first against a spot about 2 foot above the floor and pivoting it (success)</p><p>25 as 20 plus the dust around the door indicates it hasn't been opened in many months, maybe a year and the scratches on the floor suggest something heavy was dragged in or out some time in the distant past (success plus).</p><p></p><p>The truth is that the non trivial chance of failure should be reserved for certain things that are trivial to the plot. IMO This actually was the way it was in old school gaming when your character had no skills. It was all about what you did.</p><p>DM "you see in the room a dead Orc covered in a filmy substance, a small wooden chest and on the opposite wall a door" (3 auto success perception rolls)</p><p>Player "before going in I look carefully at the ceiling and the corners of the room"</p><p>DM "you see in one corner of the roof a thick web and a large black spider" (auto success based on action)</p><p>- cut to combat-</p><p>Player "right now I examine the chest"</p><p>DM "it's locked" (auto success)</p><p>Player "I search the Orc for a key"</p><p>DM "you find it" (auto success)</p><p>Etc etc.</p><p></p><p>There may be something more to the system other than just a way to adjust the philosophy behind finding clues but if that's all there is (and its important) you don't need a whole new system IMO.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="werecorpse, post: 7688627, member: 55491"] I am not a game designer and I haven't played much gumshoe but here are my thoughts on the system. I agree that many systems are designed with a non-trivial chance of failure to find an important clue but you don't need a whole new system to change this. Instead just adjust your favourite system slightly and it's all good. In the example you give of testing the blood for silver the party has to notice/pay attention to the blood (auto success based on play action) have the skill (player design) and ask to use the skill. In D20 you simply make the DC for using chemistry to discover the silver in the blood 0. That's the whole investigative system done. You don't need a whole new system to do that just a different attitude to making clues available. If you want to make it a bit more complicated maybe have DC 0 (success but problem) the blood has silver but you botched the test so it takes 4 hours to find out DC 10 (simple success) the blood has silver and it takes half an hour to find out DC 20 (great success) the blood has silver and traces of chloroform and it takes a half hour to find out Now I agree with the philosophy behind the system which is along the lines of "if it's important for the players to be able to find something don't leave it up to the dice to decide if they do" but this is just an issue of poor adventure design not game design. All those dungeons with important rooms behind secret doors you are meant to find to have more fun. Madness. I have read and tried to absorb the Gumshoe philosophy (again I am still no aficionado) and I do think it's clever so when I run these dungeons I decide if the door is a bonus or a necessary lead. If it leads to a secret treasure room that's not that important I might leave a chance of failure but otherwise my secret door location chart is more like Perception DC 0 after 10 minutes of loud searching you discover a section of the wall is hollow with a corridor behind, you can't figure out how to open it but you could probably force it open (door found, negative consequence of time and noise) 20 after a few minutes searching you find a secret door, it appears to be able to be opened by pushing first against a spot about 2 foot above the floor and pivoting it (success) 25 as 20 plus the dust around the door indicates it hasn't been opened in many months, maybe a year and the scratches on the floor suggest something heavy was dragged in or out some time in the distant past (success plus). The truth is that the non trivial chance of failure should be reserved for certain things that are trivial to the plot. IMO This actually was the way it was in old school gaming when your character had no skills. It was all about what you did. DM "you see in the room a dead Orc covered in a filmy substance, a small wooden chest and on the opposite wall a door" (3 auto success perception rolls) Player "before going in I look carefully at the ceiling and the corners of the room" DM "you see in one corner of the roof a thick web and a large black spider" (auto success based on action) - cut to combat- Player "right now I examine the chest" DM "it's locked" (auto success) Player "I search the Orc for a key" DM "you find it" (auto success) Etc etc. There may be something more to the system other than just a way to adjust the philosophy behind finding clues but if that's all there is (and its important) you don't need a whole new system IMO. [/QUOTE]
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