Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Geek Talk & Media
Why Do Batman Fans Hate Christopher Nolan?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6285553" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I can completely understand that. The Joker as portrayed by Heath Ledger does have some strong traits. He's one of the few openly Neutral Evil characters in film. I think you misunderstand if you think he's chaotic. In Chaotic Evil, there is an attitude of, "The only way to get ahead is on the backs of others." But there is no sign that his Joker character is trying to advance himself or even his own survival as an agenda - "He just wants to watch the world burn." Destruction for its own sake, often motivated because you don't believe the world is worth saving, is a neutral evil agenda. </p><p></p><p>And while the Joker as neutral evil in motivation is something I'd accept, the fact is that this character, while strong isn't what I want to see in The Joker. That makes it difficult for me to relate in the way someone with no prior experience of the character probably would. Ironically, by removing his charm, his humor, they make the joker less menacing because the really disturbing thing about the character is his charisma. We want our pure evil to look ugly, scarred, and venomous so that we can easily reject it. When that same pure evil is presented as an anti-villain, it's disturbing. This is particularly effective when you hide the evil at first, garner some empathy, and then just rub it in the person's face that the villain has no redeeming qualities at all.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What you see as strengths, I across the board see as weaknesses. If his motives are hard to fathom, then the character hasn't been drawn well. The reason his moves are impossible to foresee, is that the character possesses profound 'magic' - the ability to conjure and teleport bombs. He seems to have no logistic trail at all. Things just happen magically because he wants them to. He has no history. He has no backstory. He has no actual means of being a successful criminal. There is no reason to think this guy could organize or create or stay in charge of an organization of the size that would be required to pull of his outlandishly complicated schemes. He's not at all a believable character, and his schemes happen with the power of plot. There is no way for a detective to anticipate him because there is no reality behind what he's doing. It's like watching the story told by a bad improvisational DM where things just happen to challenge the PC's. It's not like there is any story behind what we are watching on the screen. It's shallow and empty. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not only is his batman completely unsympathetic and flat, so that we are never really rooting for him, but he's just not given enough time to develop the character. The story wants so much to happen in 2 hours, that by the time we jumped through all the stupid hoops necessary to advance the plot points, exposition to tell us what is going on, and minor character introductions - there just isn't any time to develop Batman. Nolan is relying on the fact that Batman is pretty darn iconic to begin with and that people are going to bring some notion of the character and that he's someone you should care about to the film.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6285553, member: 4937"] I can completely understand that. The Joker as portrayed by Heath Ledger does have some strong traits. He's one of the few openly Neutral Evil characters in film. I think you misunderstand if you think he's chaotic. In Chaotic Evil, there is an attitude of, "The only way to get ahead is on the backs of others." But there is no sign that his Joker character is trying to advance himself or even his own survival as an agenda - "He just wants to watch the world burn." Destruction for its own sake, often motivated because you don't believe the world is worth saving, is a neutral evil agenda. And while the Joker as neutral evil in motivation is something I'd accept, the fact is that this character, while strong isn't what I want to see in The Joker. That makes it difficult for me to relate in the way someone with no prior experience of the character probably would. Ironically, by removing his charm, his humor, they make the joker less menacing because the really disturbing thing about the character is his charisma. We want our pure evil to look ugly, scarred, and venomous so that we can easily reject it. When that same pure evil is presented as an anti-villain, it's disturbing. This is particularly effective when you hide the evil at first, garner some empathy, and then just rub it in the person's face that the villain has no redeeming qualities at all. What you see as strengths, I across the board see as weaknesses. If his motives are hard to fathom, then the character hasn't been drawn well. The reason his moves are impossible to foresee, is that the character possesses profound 'magic' - the ability to conjure and teleport bombs. He seems to have no logistic trail at all. Things just happen magically because he wants them to. He has no history. He has no backstory. He has no actual means of being a successful criminal. There is no reason to think this guy could organize or create or stay in charge of an organization of the size that would be required to pull of his outlandishly complicated schemes. He's not at all a believable character, and his schemes happen with the power of plot. There is no way for a detective to anticipate him because there is no reality behind what he's doing. It's like watching the story told by a bad improvisational DM where things just happen to challenge the PC's. It's not like there is any story behind what we are watching on the screen. It's shallow and empty. Not only is his batman completely unsympathetic and flat, so that we are never really rooting for him, but he's just not given enough time to develop the character. The story wants so much to happen in 2 hours, that by the time we jumped through all the stupid hoops necessary to advance the plot points, exposition to tell us what is going on, and minor character introductions - there just isn't any time to develop Batman. Nolan is relying on the fact that Batman is pretty darn iconic to begin with and that people are going to bring some notion of the character and that he's someone you should care about to the film. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Geek Talk & Media
Why Do Batman Fans Hate Christopher Nolan?
Top