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Why do they keep on dying?!
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<blockquote data-quote="aboyd" data-source="post: 5556014" data-attributes="member: 44797"><p><span style="font-size: 15px">1. reconsider</span></p><p></p><p>You know, in another thread just yesterday I was busily defending someone who was doing weird stuff in his game, because he loved doing it. But here, I'm just not sure what to say. You're doing stuff that makes you unhappy because... it's the "principle" of the thing? In a game? A game meant to be fun? And you're holding on to it so tightly that you've stopped gaming because you'd rather adhere to the principle?</p><p></p><p>The ideology of "always start at level 1" is not sacred, and if it is making it so that your group "doesn't even want to play" then you might consider knocking it off the pedestal. Reclaim your happiness.</p><p></p><p>There are many things that you can do once you get away from starting at first level. There are Goodman Games modules (Halls of the Minotaur, and Legends Are Born, Not Made) that start at zero and enable all sorts of fun play outside of the 1st-level mandate.</p><p></p><p>I'm a fan of starting at level 3, with older PCs. I do this partly because my friends and I are all in our 30s and 40s now, and playing teenagers feels weird. But also, the aging rules allow anyone playing a wizard to get a boost to Intelligence if he/she is old enough (of course, the aging rules also knock down the physical attributes, so I leave it open for players to fall on the younger or older side at their own discretion). We enjoy playing with the idea of grizzled old hardened men and women who spent most of their lives slowly acquiring XP via minor defense of a keep or pursuing a small trade or whatever, and then suddenly they are plunged into the adventuring life due to some catastrophe.</p><p></p><p>(Since PCs can go from level 1 to level 20 in a mere 30 to 300 days' time in the game world, it's typical in D&D to see PCs going from "humble teenager setting out on his own" to "ascending to godhood" all within the same year. Delaying this further into adulthood feels really good to me.)</p><p></p><p>In addition, if you start at level 6, 7, 8, or 9, you can easily incorporate interesting game mechanics that are typically painful for DMs at level 1. For example, level-adjusted races. A player wanting to select "minotaur" as his race will often find himself blocked by a DM that doesn't want the minotaur's natural attacks to overpower any low-level module. Yet if you start them at a later level, many level-adjusted races are not only viable, but easy and non-threatening.</p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px">2. playing along</span></p><p></p><p>So if what I just wrote above does not impress you at all, then fine, let's work with what ya got. I note that the modules you mentioned are indeed all classics in the classic sense -- that is, they have years on them, nostalgia working in their favor, time-tested, etc. But have you considered newer classics? What about the Freeport Trilogy from Green Ronin? What about modules from Necromancer Games? They had a few celebrated 3.5 edition modules that form a decent campaign (levels 1 to 15 or so). They are: The Lost City of Barakus, level 1 to 5, The Vault of Larin Karr, level 4 to 9, and Trouble at Durbenford, level 8 to 14.</p><p></p><p>In addition, you can swap out the Larin Karr module for another Necromancer Games module called The Grey Citadel, which covers roughly the same levels. Both Larin Karr & Grey Citadel are 3.0, whereas Barakus & Durbenford are 3.5. So you might need to do minor conversions for the middle module.</p><p></p><p>The modules are great for their weirdness & variety. Dungeons, wilderness, traps, monsters, puzzles, city & diplomacy/politics, etc. The are not just the same thing over & over again, which keeps me so happy. Plus, some of the NPCs are memorable and unusual. Bevin Nightwind, from the Durbenford module, I ended up fully statting out in HeroForge just because he was so fun. I believe there is a shape-shifting dragon living in that module too, and it was interesting enough to get me to write up a summary (for myself) of how weirdly & differently he would behave merely due to the fact that he wasn't actually human.</p><p></p><p>Although I don't have a lot of the Pathfinder modules, The Tower of the Last Baron was a great infiltration module for level 5 (IIRC).</p><p></p><p>I own a lot of Dungeon Crawl Classics modules, from Goodman Games. Cage of Delirium is an amazing haunted house module that comes with a soundtrack, if you get the printed module. The Sunken Ziggurat is awesome, and I had a fun time putting Zargon at the bottom of that dungeon (instead of the dragon god). The Scaly God reads well, though I've not run it. The Sinister Secret of Whiterock is a favorite of mine. I've run it 4 times now, I think. Same with Temple of Blood, which is technically a Goodman Games module, but not a Dungeon Crawl Classic. It's from their Wicked Fantasy line, and it's mostly an over-the-top mini-dungeon about kidnapped princesses who will throw themselves at the heroes once rescued.</p><p></p><p>My other two suggestions are as follows. First, you can get "The Adventure Begins" and "The Adventure Continues" to get two hardbound mini-module collections (each book has about 20 modules) that are for levels 1 though 6. Lots of variety, cheap price. Second, what about all the <a href="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b&page=1" target="_blank">free modules</a> that Wizards of the Coast put out? Have you tried them? Some are <em>very</em> good. In particular, Wreck Ashore, Burning Plague, Base of Operations, Hasken's Manor, and Treasure of the Black Veils were all very fun for me both as a player and later as a DM.</p><p></p><p><span style="font-size: 15px">3. question</span></p><p></p><p>Why the heck are characters dying at level 9 and ending the campaign? At level 9, the party cleric has Raise Dead. And even if there is no party cleric, there should be enough cash in the group at that point to pay for such a spell from a local temple. Also, at level 7+ the combat shouldn't be over in just a round or two. Fights should be taking many rounds. So at that point, the players should have plenty of time to see how the fight is going, and flee if necessary. How are they getting caught off guard? Are they railroaded? Are there no easier options?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="aboyd, post: 5556014, member: 44797"] [SIZE="4"]1. reconsider[/SIZE] You know, in another thread just yesterday I was busily defending someone who was doing weird stuff in his game, because he loved doing it. But here, I'm just not sure what to say. You're doing stuff that makes you unhappy because... it's the "principle" of the thing? In a game? A game meant to be fun? And you're holding on to it so tightly that you've stopped gaming because you'd rather adhere to the principle? The ideology of "always start at level 1" is not sacred, and if it is making it so that your group "doesn't even want to play" then you might consider knocking it off the pedestal. Reclaim your happiness. There are many things that you can do once you get away from starting at first level. There are Goodman Games modules (Halls of the Minotaur, and Legends Are Born, Not Made) that start at zero and enable all sorts of fun play outside of the 1st-level mandate. I'm a fan of starting at level 3, with older PCs. I do this partly because my friends and I are all in our 30s and 40s now, and playing teenagers feels weird. But also, the aging rules allow anyone playing a wizard to get a boost to Intelligence if he/she is old enough (of course, the aging rules also knock down the physical attributes, so I leave it open for players to fall on the younger or older side at their own discretion). We enjoy playing with the idea of grizzled old hardened men and women who spent most of their lives slowly acquiring XP via minor defense of a keep or pursuing a small trade or whatever, and then suddenly they are plunged into the adventuring life due to some catastrophe. (Since PCs can go from level 1 to level 20 in a mere 30 to 300 days' time in the game world, it's typical in D&D to see PCs going from "humble teenager setting out on his own" to "ascending to godhood" all within the same year. Delaying this further into adulthood feels really good to me.) In addition, if you start at level 6, 7, 8, or 9, you can easily incorporate interesting game mechanics that are typically painful for DMs at level 1. For example, level-adjusted races. A player wanting to select "minotaur" as his race will often find himself blocked by a DM that doesn't want the minotaur's natural attacks to overpower any low-level module. Yet if you start them at a later level, many level-adjusted races are not only viable, but easy and non-threatening. [SIZE="4"]2. playing along[/SIZE] So if what I just wrote above does not impress you at all, then fine, let's work with what ya got. I note that the modules you mentioned are indeed all classics in the classic sense -- that is, they have years on them, nostalgia working in their favor, time-tested, etc. But have you considered newer classics? What about the Freeport Trilogy from Green Ronin? What about modules from Necromancer Games? They had a few celebrated 3.5 edition modules that form a decent campaign (levels 1 to 15 or so). They are: The Lost City of Barakus, level 1 to 5, The Vault of Larin Karr, level 4 to 9, and Trouble at Durbenford, level 8 to 14. In addition, you can swap out the Larin Karr module for another Necromancer Games module called The Grey Citadel, which covers roughly the same levels. Both Larin Karr & Grey Citadel are 3.0, whereas Barakus & Durbenford are 3.5. So you might need to do minor conversions for the middle module. The modules are great for their weirdness & variety. Dungeons, wilderness, traps, monsters, puzzles, city & diplomacy/politics, etc. The are not just the same thing over & over again, which keeps me so happy. Plus, some of the NPCs are memorable and unusual. Bevin Nightwind, from the Durbenford module, I ended up fully statting out in HeroForge just because he was so fun. I believe there is a shape-shifting dragon living in that module too, and it was interesting enough to get me to write up a summary (for myself) of how weirdly & differently he would behave merely due to the fact that he wasn't actually human. Although I don't have a lot of the Pathfinder modules, The Tower of the Last Baron was a great infiltration module for level 5 (IIRC). I own a lot of Dungeon Crawl Classics modules, from Goodman Games. Cage of Delirium is an amazing haunted house module that comes with a soundtrack, if you get the printed module. The Sunken Ziggurat is awesome, and I had a fun time putting Zargon at the bottom of that dungeon (instead of the dragon god). The Scaly God reads well, though I've not run it. The Sinister Secret of Whiterock is a favorite of mine. I've run it 4 times now, I think. Same with Temple of Blood, which is technically a Goodman Games module, but not a Dungeon Crawl Classic. It's from their Wicked Fantasy line, and it's mostly an over-the-top mini-dungeon about kidnapped princesses who will throw themselves at the heroes once rescued. My other two suggestions are as follows. First, you can get "The Adventure Begins" and "The Adventure Continues" to get two hardbound mini-module collections (each book has about 20 modules) that are for levels 1 though 6. Lots of variety, cheap price. Second, what about all the [url=http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b&page=1]free modules[/url] that Wizards of the Coast put out? Have you tried them? Some are [i]very[/i] good. In particular, Wreck Ashore, Burning Plague, Base of Operations, Hasken's Manor, and Treasure of the Black Veils were all very fun for me both as a player and later as a DM. [SIZE="4"]3. question[/SIZE] Why the heck are characters dying at level 9 and ending the campaign? At level 9, the party cleric has Raise Dead. And even if there is no party cleric, there should be enough cash in the group at that point to pay for such a spell from a local temple. Also, at level 7+ the combat shouldn't be over in just a round or two. Fights should be taking many rounds. So at that point, the players should have plenty of time to see how the fight is going, and flee if necessary. How are they getting caught off guard? Are they railroaded? Are there no easier options? [/QUOTE]
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