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Why is Hoard of the Dragon Queen such a bad adventure?
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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 6478282" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>That the PCs do not know about.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, the players (and PCs) do not know this.</p><p></p><p>The players do not know that "the adventure explicitly says". The DM should know that, but not the players.</p><p></p><p>The players (and PCs) know that a dragon is attacking.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Going to the town because that is the "adventure du jour" when a dragon is attacking the town is metagaming unless the PCs are either suicidal, or willing to do a heroic sacrifice.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>After the fact knowledge that you are discussing.</p><p></p><p>When on the road, the PCs (and players) do not know any of this. They know that a dragon is attacking a town. Period. Even if the DM tells them that there is a keep in the middle of the town, how are they expected to get past a dragon to get to it?</p><p></p><p></p><p>In the MiG example, there is no way to safely get to the town. If the MiG pilot spots you, he kills you.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nope. It does not change my perspective. The PCs have to get to the keep in order to be safe within the keep.</p><p></p><p>The description that I got were that there were creatures moving through the town, but that they were so small that we could not make out details. That means, townsfolks (who had not made it to the keep), or attackers. If the townsfolk are not yet safely in the keep, what makes a PC think that s/he can get safely there. If the creatures in the town are not townsfolk, then they are probably attackers who are between us and the keep. Either way, the odds of getting to the keep sound slim.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You seem to have difficulty distinguishing the difference between what the DM knows (based on what is written in the module) and what the players know.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You can try to justify this as a reasonable encounter, but sorry, there is nothing reasonable about a CR 16 or so Dragon against first level PCs. Yup. The module says that the Dragon will probably not attack the PCs, but the players do not know this. Hence, it looks 100% like suicide from the PC's (and player's) perspective.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Player 1: "Nope. Not going in there. Are you fricking kidding me? That's a dragon."</p><p>DM: "Listen. It's all good. Do you really think that the module is designed to kill off first level PCs? Trust me. It's ok. You can go into a town with an attacking dragon."</p><p></p><p></p><p>Btw, all of this is fine without the dragon.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This is like a money discussion in D&D. The merchant is going to give the 3rd level PCs 100 GP each to go do a task. How much is that? For some groups and some players, who cares? It's just treasure. It buys some stuff in the game and a second thought on it is not even made.</p><p></p><p>For someone like myself, 1 GP is about $100 (YMMV, but this works out fairly well for many items).</p><p></p><p>That means that the merchant is handing out $10,000 to each PC. Sometimes, this is up front money. Who the heck hands out $10,000 up front to someone for a job? I view the game from the PC's perspective of "this is a LOT of money", not from the player's perspective of "100 GP? Good, I can learn a new first level spell and get one potion of healing". To the player, it's small potatoes. Something to write down on the character sheet. But I use the PC's POV where that much money is a big dot deal for wet behind the ears 3rd level PCs. Why is the merchant willing to fork over so much money? What's going on?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Not every player just goes "shrug, that's the adventure the DM has set up, let's go".</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 6478282, member: 2011"] That the PCs do not know about. Again, the players (and PCs) do not know this. The players do not know that "the adventure explicitly says". The DM should know that, but not the players. The players (and PCs) know that a dragon is attacking. Going to the town because that is the "adventure du jour" when a dragon is attacking the town is metagaming unless the PCs are either suicidal, or willing to do a heroic sacrifice. After the fact knowledge that you are discussing. When on the road, the PCs (and players) do not know any of this. They know that a dragon is attacking a town. Period. Even if the DM tells them that there is a keep in the middle of the town, how are they expected to get past a dragon to get to it? In the MiG example, there is no way to safely get to the town. If the MiG pilot spots you, he kills you. Nope. It does not change my perspective. The PCs have to get to the keep in order to be safe within the keep. The description that I got were that there were creatures moving through the town, but that they were so small that we could not make out details. That means, townsfolks (who had not made it to the keep), or attackers. If the townsfolk are not yet safely in the keep, what makes a PC think that s/he can get safely there. If the creatures in the town are not townsfolk, then they are probably attackers who are between us and the keep. Either way, the odds of getting to the keep sound slim. You seem to have difficulty distinguishing the difference between what the DM knows (based on what is written in the module) and what the players know. You can try to justify this as a reasonable encounter, but sorry, there is nothing reasonable about a CR 16 or so Dragon against first level PCs. Yup. The module says that the Dragon will probably not attack the PCs, but the players do not know this. Hence, it looks 100% like suicide from the PC's (and player's) perspective. Player 1: "Nope. Not going in there. Are you fricking kidding me? That's a dragon." DM: "Listen. It's all good. Do you really think that the module is designed to kill off first level PCs? Trust me. It's ok. You can go into a town with an attacking dragon." Btw, all of this is fine without the dragon. This is like a money discussion in D&D. The merchant is going to give the 3rd level PCs 100 GP each to go do a task. How much is that? For some groups and some players, who cares? It's just treasure. It buys some stuff in the game and a second thought on it is not even made. For someone like myself, 1 GP is about $100 (YMMV, but this works out fairly well for many items). That means that the merchant is handing out $10,000 to each PC. Sometimes, this is up front money. Who the heck hands out $10,000 up front to someone for a job? I view the game from the PC's perspective of "this is a LOT of money", not from the player's perspective of "100 GP? Good, I can learn a new first level spell and get one potion of healing". To the player, it's small potatoes. Something to write down on the character sheet. But I use the PC's POV where that much money is a big dot deal for wet behind the ears 3rd level PCs. Why is the merchant willing to fork over so much money? What's going on? Not every player just goes "shrug, that's the adventure the DM has set up, let's go". [/QUOTE]
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Why is Hoard of the Dragon Queen such a bad adventure?
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