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General Tabletop Discussion
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Why is wotc still aiming for PCs with 10 *real word* feet of range? W/o vision range penalty/limit rules for the GM?
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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 9009950" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>Since we are talking about a core mechanics design issue, lets shift away from blaming any specific GM & use some examples from wotc <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p><p></p><p>[spoiler="Here is five examples"]</p><p>[spoiler="5e dmg pg85"]</p><p>TRIGGERING RANDOM ENCOUNTERS</p><p>Because you want random encounters to build on the</p><p>intended narrative of a game session, not compete with</p><p>it, you should choose the placement of those encounters</p><p>carefully. Think about a random encounter under any of</p><p>the following circumstances:</p><p>• The players are getting off track and slowing</p><p>down the game.</p><p>The characters stop for a short or long rest.</p><p><strong>• The characters are undertaking a long,</strong></p><p><strong>uneventful journey.</strong></p><p>The characters draw attention to themselves when</p><p>they should be keeping a low profile.</p><p></p><p>C HAPTER 3 C R EATING ADVENTURES</p><p></p><p>85</p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p></p><p>Here's another one</p><p>[spoiler="LMoP Pg30"]</p><p>Two twig blights hide among the weeds that flank the</p><p>cottage's open doorway. [/spoiler]</p><p>another,,</p><p>[spoiler="LMoP 35"]</p><p>The faint smell of smoke hangs on the air as you ascend a</p><p>rugged ridge on the lower slopes of the hill. Fifty yards away,</p><p>a cave mouth opens up at the bottom of a ravine. Hunkered</p><p>down by a boulder twenty yards outside the cave, keeping</p><p>watch, is a single ore.</p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p></p><p>[spoiler="LMoP29"]</p><p>As you crest a low ridge, you spy the crumbling ruins of an</p><p>old watchtower standing amid the rugged hills. The place is</p><p>so old that the walls are only mounds of rubble enclosing a</p><p>courtyard of sorts, adjacent to the broken stump of an old</p><p>tower. A colorful tent has been set up in the middle of the</p><p>courtyard, but no one is in sight.</p><p></p><p>[ispoiler]On more than one occasion I've seen different groups respond to that by deciding to hang out on the ridge & wait to see who comes out of the tent... keep waiting... "actually I'm an outlander I can give everyone food & water"...[/ispoiler]</p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p>Still more</p><p>[spoiler="LMoP8"]</p><p>On the east side of the stream flowing from the cave mouth, a</p><p>small area in the briar thickets has been hollowed out to form</p><p>a lookout post or blind. Wooden planks flatten out the briars</p><p>and provide room for guards to lie hidden and watch the</p><p>area-including a pair of goblins lurking there right now!</p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p>I could comb through the various wotc adventures & provide a much<em> much</em> longer list, CoS has a few encounters while traveling on roads too plus yester hill IIRC.. so does DiA & others. I decided to go with examples primarily from LMoP because it's a fairly short & generally well regarded adventure that very nicely shows a wide selection of very reasonable examples reflecting a good chunk of the kinds of outdoor encounters a group is going to have in the other adventures as well as those made by many GMs. As you note, the melee characters totally deserve to participate in these battles they are unable to really do so with. There are plenty of reasons to have outdoor encounters & if the design intent is to forbid the GM from using those, the ranges are obviously beyond excessive for a dungeon crawler. Blaming the GM for not building outdoor dungeon crawl arms races when those kinds of events occur naturally highlights the fact that characters with abilities covering ten feet of tablespace is not justified by the game</p><p></p><p>That's part of the reason it's such a problem. anything the GM does is raw fiat certain to generate a chorus of "<em>but I have $reasonForDisagreeing</em>" at some point or is just an obvious hack attempting to make the battlemat work for a job that not even the table itself beneath the mat itself is likely to meet the needs of <em>-and-</em> it creates an encounter that much of the group is simply unable to participate in. Changing square size to 1inch squares10ft instead of 5 so things drop from 10ft of table space & empire state building height across sized battlefields to half that size doesn't really solve much & problems start creeping in. If you use battletech style 30ft ones you just change one problem for a bunch of others as PCs find themselves with one square of movement per turn & all kinds of other stuff breaks down with an endless list of things like a burning hands that may not even leave the caster's square & certainly won't leave the square of an adjacent monster s a simple example. With a VTT things start straining the social contract as those hacks shift to running into "<em>I totally could show that on the map, but I <u>won't</u></em>" without flexible tools for the GM to lean on</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 9009950, member: 93670"] Since we are talking about a core mechanics design issue, lets shift away from blaming any specific GM & use some examples from wotc :D [spoiler="Here is five examples"] [spoiler="5e dmg pg85"] TRIGGERING RANDOM ENCOUNTERS Because you want random encounters to build on the intended narrative of a game session, not compete with it, you should choose the placement of those encounters carefully. Think about a random encounter under any of the following circumstances: • The players are getting off track and slowing down the game. The characters stop for a short or long rest. [B]• The characters are undertaking a long, uneventful journey.[/B] The characters draw attention to themselves when they should be keeping a low profile. C HAPTER 3 C R EATING ADVENTURES 85 [/spoiler] Here's another one [spoiler="LMoP Pg30"] Two twig blights hide among the weeds that flank the cottage's open doorway. [/spoiler] another,, [spoiler="LMoP 35"] The faint smell of smoke hangs on the air as you ascend a rugged ridge on the lower slopes of the hill. Fifty yards away, a cave mouth opens up at the bottom of a ravine. Hunkered down by a boulder twenty yards outside the cave, keeping watch, is a single ore. [/spoiler] [spoiler="LMoP29"] As you crest a low ridge, you spy the crumbling ruins of an old watchtower standing amid the rugged hills. The place is so old that the walls are only mounds of rubble enclosing a courtyard of sorts, adjacent to the broken stump of an old tower. A colorful tent has been set up in the middle of the courtyard, but no one is in sight. [ispoiler]On more than one occasion I've seen different groups respond to that by deciding to hang out on the ridge & wait to see who comes out of the tent... keep waiting... "actually I'm an outlander I can give everyone food & water"...[/ispoiler] [/spoiler] Still more [spoiler="LMoP8"] On the east side of the stream flowing from the cave mouth, a small area in the briar thickets has been hollowed out to form a lookout post or blind. Wooden planks flatten out the briars and provide room for guards to lie hidden and watch the area-including a pair of goblins lurking there right now! [/spoiler] [/spoiler] I could comb through the various wotc adventures & provide a much[I] much[/I] longer list, CoS has a few encounters while traveling on roads too plus yester hill IIRC.. so does DiA & others. I decided to go with examples primarily from LMoP because it's a fairly short & generally well regarded adventure that very nicely shows a wide selection of very reasonable examples reflecting a good chunk of the kinds of outdoor encounters a group is going to have in the other adventures as well as those made by many GMs. As you note, the melee characters totally deserve to participate in these battles they are unable to really do so with. There are plenty of reasons to have outdoor encounters & if the design intent is to forbid the GM from using those, the ranges are obviously beyond excessive for a dungeon crawler. Blaming the GM for not building outdoor dungeon crawl arms races when those kinds of events occur naturally highlights the fact that characters with abilities covering ten feet of tablespace is not justified by the game That's part of the reason it's such a problem. anything the GM does is raw fiat certain to generate a chorus of "[I]but I have $reasonForDisagreeing[/I]" at some point or is just an obvious hack attempting to make the battlemat work for a job that not even the table itself beneath the mat itself is likely to meet the needs of [I]-and-[/I] it creates an encounter that much of the group is simply unable to participate in. Changing square size to 1inch squares10ft instead of 5 so things drop from 10ft of table space & empire state building height across sized battlefields to half that size doesn't really solve much & problems start creeping in. If you use battletech style 30ft ones you just change one problem for a bunch of others as PCs find themselves with one square of movement per turn & all kinds of other stuff breaks down with an endless list of things like a burning hands that may not even leave the caster's square & certainly won't leave the square of an adjacent monster s a simple example. With a VTT things start straining the social contract as those hacks shift to running into "[I]I totally could show that on the map, but I [U]won't[/U][/I]" without flexible tools for the GM to lean on [/QUOTE]
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Community
General Tabletop Discussion
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Why is wotc still aiming for PCs with 10 *real word* feet of range? W/o vision range penalty/limit rules for the GM?
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