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Why is wotc still aiming for PCs with 10 *real word* feet of range? W/o vision range penalty/limit rules for the GM?
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<blockquote data-quote="Willie the Duck" data-source="post: 9010016" data-attributes="member: 6799660"><p>I think others have reasonably pointed out that this is based on longbows. In Chainmail/AD&D, they had a Long Range of 21" (210 yards) -- perfectly reasonable for most wargame sand tables or battlemats (when used), especially since you were rarely on one corner shooting to the other. This became ~600' in-game, which gamers have normalized as a reasonable max range for missile weapons (heavy crossbows sometimes being longer). When standard battlemat sizing shifted from 10' squares indoors/10yd. squares outdoors to 5' squares, bows retained their expected range in feet, rather than in battlemat squares. That a longbow now reaches across two standard folding tables or whatever hasn't been considered an issue because the situation doesn't often come up, and when it does, it isn't always clear that any given fix would have resolved it (if the distance were merely 48", that would fix it for some battlemats -- if and only if you were starting at one corner instead of the middle). Beyond that, there have been ways since this switch to exceed 600 (spell sniper eldritch spear, plenty of things in 3e, PF, and 4e), so any given fix wouldn't resolve any and all problems. Thus people find solutions when it does come up (switching to small graph paper and 10" squares for long-distance battles, theater of mind, etc.). </p><p></p><p>All of which is a long way of saying I recognize the issue you are raising, and the explanation for why nothing has changed is that the juice hasn't been worth the squeeze, it hasn't been anyone's priority, and some people used to the current situation might complain, so no one has a real vested interest in fixes (any one of which probably won't fix things for most people). </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My takeaway from Tod and Scholagladatoria and such is that once you start putting in variables like force at a given range, all the simplifications that D&D does (like treating plate and mail&shield and armors that cover everything vs those that leave parts bare as a linear numeric scale) make attempting to approximate reality a minefield. One thing they all seem to point out is that, after a certain distance, there's enough hang-time that aware opponents (not in packed formation with nowhere to go) can see the arrow coming and move. This is a point where basing your game off a wargame runs into the issue that what D&D adventurers (and their opponents) do doesn't look much like a battlefield. It would be perfectly reasonable for D&D bows to have ranges of "200'*," with the * some caveat about except for complete surprise/unmoving targets or something.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Willie the Duck, post: 9010016, member: 6799660"] I think others have reasonably pointed out that this is based on longbows. In Chainmail/AD&D, they had a Long Range of 21" (210 yards) -- perfectly reasonable for most wargame sand tables or battlemats (when used), especially since you were rarely on one corner shooting to the other. This became ~600' in-game, which gamers have normalized as a reasonable max range for missile weapons (heavy crossbows sometimes being longer). When standard battlemat sizing shifted from 10' squares indoors/10yd. squares outdoors to 5' squares, bows retained their expected range in feet, rather than in battlemat squares. That a longbow now reaches across two standard folding tables or whatever hasn't been considered an issue because the situation doesn't often come up, and when it does, it isn't always clear that any given fix would have resolved it (if the distance were merely 48", that would fix it for some battlemats -- if and only if you were starting at one corner instead of the middle). Beyond that, there have been ways since this switch to exceed 600 (spell sniper eldritch spear, plenty of things in 3e, PF, and 4e), so any given fix wouldn't resolve any and all problems. Thus people find solutions when it does come up (switching to small graph paper and 10" squares for long-distance battles, theater of mind, etc.). All of which is a long way of saying I recognize the issue you are raising, and the explanation for why nothing has changed is that the juice hasn't been worth the squeeze, it hasn't been anyone's priority, and some people used to the current situation might complain, so no one has a real vested interest in fixes (any one of which probably won't fix things for most people). My takeaway from Tod and Scholagladatoria and such is that once you start putting in variables like force at a given range, all the simplifications that D&D does (like treating plate and mail&shield and armors that cover everything vs those that leave parts bare as a linear numeric scale) make attempting to approximate reality a minefield. One thing they all seem to point out is that, after a certain distance, there's enough hang-time that aware opponents (not in packed formation with nowhere to go) can see the arrow coming and move. This is a point where basing your game off a wargame runs into the issue that what D&D adventurers (and their opponents) do doesn't look much like a battlefield. It would be perfectly reasonable for D&D bows to have ranges of "200'*," with the * some caveat about except for complete surprise/unmoving targets or something. [/QUOTE]
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Community
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Why is wotc still aiming for PCs with 10 *real word* feet of range? W/o vision range penalty/limit rules for the GM?
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