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Why isn't base attack a skill?
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<blockquote data-quote="swrushing" data-source="post: 2717224" data-attributes="member: 14140"><p>Actually, this confuses me.</p><p></p><p>not that i think it is wrong per se, but, I came at this thinking "well, a fundamental change to something as intrinsic as BAB is going to mean evaluating and possibly changing the rest of the balance formulas and such as a part of it." </p><p></p><p>I had thought everyone else did too.</p><p></p><p>Are you thinking some of the people discussing changing from class-set BABs to skill based BABs was going to be a minor tweak not needing reworking in other areas too, and so you felt the need for this post of caution?</p><p></p><p><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Let me join in and add my voice to the chorus...</p><p></p><p>folks, any major change (like how you derive the figure in the first place: class trait changes to skill) to a fundamental trait (like BAB) is going to have ripples throughout the system that mean other areas and particularly those tied to balance will need to be looked at too.</p><p></p><p>that doesn't mean such notions should be dismissed on account of such ripples, or that its wrong to discuss them or even play with them, just that you ought not to come in expecting this to be an isolated small change that leaves all else intact.</p><p></p><p>personally, one of the "why isn't it a skill" answers i had was "because its much easier to balance classes when this fundamental an element is set and not "player-chosen". If BAB was a skill then a 10th level fighter could have BAB+0 or BAB +13 or anywhere in between and thats really tough to handle balance-wise. By setting it more firmly as a class trait, they made their job easier. Same with saves.</p><p></p><p>And BTW, I agree with the notions about "minimums". I have seen many a case in point buys where some glaring weaknesses came about as a result of not choosing traits that were needed. Certainly, moving BAB, BDB, and even saves into the skill realm puts them more into "player choice" and bad choices on those most fundamental aspects can have tragic results. As such this does diminish the degree of "good for intro games" a bit.</p><p></p><p>So, there are certainly some downsides.</p><p></p><p>So let me ask a question that might have slipped by.</p><p></p><p>What are the ACTUAL BENEFITS to the game, and specifically to playing the game, that making BAB and BDB (and maybe saves) a part of the skill system is supposed to bring.</p><p></p><p>Now one possibility is that the benefits are just theoretical, that its a philosophical issue of "purer game design" as in its more "why are they not skills?" than "they should be skills to gain us..." if thats the case i tend to stop short 'cuz too often i see changes for "game theory" not take into account game play and lead to trouble.</p><p></p><p>So, how about taking this from the top and asking "how would the game be better with class traits like these worked into the skill system instead of being part of class defined traits?"</p><p></p><p>Once we get a handle on the pragmatic, real play benefits we are after, then we can perhaps move more directly towards those specific goals.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="swrushing, post: 2717224, member: 14140"] Actually, this confuses me. not that i think it is wrong per se, but, I came at this thinking "well, a fundamental change to something as intrinsic as BAB is going to mean evaluating and possibly changing the rest of the balance formulas and such as a part of it." I had thought everyone else did too. Are you thinking some of the people discussing changing from class-set BABs to skill based BABs was going to be a minor tweak not needing reworking in other areas too, and so you felt the need for this post of caution? :-) Let me join in and add my voice to the chorus... folks, any major change (like how you derive the figure in the first place: class trait changes to skill) to a fundamental trait (like BAB) is going to have ripples throughout the system that mean other areas and particularly those tied to balance will need to be looked at too. that doesn't mean such notions should be dismissed on account of such ripples, or that its wrong to discuss them or even play with them, just that you ought not to come in expecting this to be an isolated small change that leaves all else intact. personally, one of the "why isn't it a skill" answers i had was "because its much easier to balance classes when this fundamental an element is set and not "player-chosen". If BAB was a skill then a 10th level fighter could have BAB+0 or BAB +13 or anywhere in between and thats really tough to handle balance-wise. By setting it more firmly as a class trait, they made their job easier. Same with saves. And BTW, I agree with the notions about "minimums". I have seen many a case in point buys where some glaring weaknesses came about as a result of not choosing traits that were needed. Certainly, moving BAB, BDB, and even saves into the skill realm puts them more into "player choice" and bad choices on those most fundamental aspects can have tragic results. As such this does diminish the degree of "good for intro games" a bit. So, there are certainly some downsides. So let me ask a question that might have slipped by. What are the ACTUAL BENEFITS to the game, and specifically to playing the game, that making BAB and BDB (and maybe saves) a part of the skill system is supposed to bring. Now one possibility is that the benefits are just theoretical, that its a philosophical issue of "purer game design" as in its more "why are they not skills?" than "they should be skills to gain us..." if thats the case i tend to stop short 'cuz too often i see changes for "game theory" not take into account game play and lead to trouble. So, how about taking this from the top and asking "how would the game be better with class traits like these worked into the skill system instead of being part of class defined traits?" Once we get a handle on the pragmatic, real play benefits we are after, then we can perhaps move more directly towards those specific goals. [/QUOTE]
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