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Why use D&D for a Simulationist style Game?
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<blockquote data-quote="Dausuul" data-source="post: 6359990" data-attributes="member: 58197"><p>I mostly hang out in the 5E forums, and didn't notice this thread until today. Since I'm the guy being quoted in the OP, I figure I should probably weigh in. I'll start by saying that I don't believe in simulationism.</p><p></p><p>And by that, I don't mean "I don't like simulationism" or "I don't think simulationism makes for a good game." I mean that I actually do not believe there is any such thing. More precisely, I think that "simulationism" is lumping together a whole lot of different goals one might pursue in an RPG--verisimilitude, immersion, historical accuracy, the narrative flowing naturally from the rules, high granularity in the rules--and treating them as a coherent agenda when they're nothing of the sort. Some people happen to value all those things, and you could call them "simulationists*," but you're not describing a distinct category of people, just picking the middle of a Venn diagram and slapping a label on it. I don't believe in gamism either, or narrativism, for much the same reasons.</p><p></p><p>So: With regard to my rant quoted in the OP, where am I coming from? Not "simulationism," certainly. I'd say my agenda is a combination of "immersion," "challenge," "verisimilitude," "ease of play," and "popularity." I want a game that is immersive, that allows me to "step into my character" and make decisions as my character would. I want a game that offers me (through my character) interesting choices, both tactical and personal. I want a game in which the fictional reality presented to me is a convincing facade, one that doesn't cause me to question what's going on during play**. I want a game where the mechanics are relatively light and I don't have to spend a lot of mental energy manipulating numbers. And finally, I want to be able to find other people to play it! D&D meets these requirements pretty well--not perfectly on any of them, but well enough on all that I don't feel the need to go through the time and effort of finding a game that meets them better and convincing my group to switch.</p><p></p><p>The question at issue was, "If you take ranger spells, and reskin them as non-magical abilities, does it matter that they have odd daily limits on their use?" I should first of all note that my rant suggests I care a lot more about this specific issue than I do; it's a nuisance, not a deal-breaker. It's been in D&D since days of yore, it's been bugging me that entire time, I live with it. But, I do object to many per-day abilities on immersion grounds. During play, I want to make decisions as my character would. If I am using a per-day ability, one of the factors weighing heavily in my decision-making is the knowledge that I only get limited use out of that ability per day--if I use it now, it may cost me a chance to use it later.</p><p></p><p>If my character has no such knowledge, that's a problem for me, because now I'm making decisions on the basis of out-of-character knowledge. My character doesn't have to know the exact numbers; when I play a barbarian, the barbarian doesn't have to know that she gets exactly 3 rages per day. (This is an acceptable concession for ease of play.) But she knows that raging is tiring and if she does it too much, she'll be too tired to do it again. I object to limits I can't easily explain in character.</p><p></p><p>[SIZE=-2]*Or possibly "narrativists," or maybe "gamists." My other problem with GNS is that the definitions of the words change radically depending on what hobbyhorse Ron Edwards is riding that day.</p><p></p><p>**The words "during play" are crucial here. I do not require that the rules be realistic; I only require that they don't make me stop and go "Huh?" in the heat of the game. I also don't mind making out-of-character decisions, like picking feats on level-up, when not at the table.[/SIZE]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dausuul, post: 6359990, member: 58197"] I mostly hang out in the 5E forums, and didn't notice this thread until today. Since I'm the guy being quoted in the OP, I figure I should probably weigh in. I'll start by saying that I don't believe in simulationism. And by that, I don't mean "I don't like simulationism" or "I don't think simulationism makes for a good game." I mean that I actually do not believe there is any such thing. More precisely, I think that "simulationism" is lumping together a whole lot of different goals one might pursue in an RPG--verisimilitude, immersion, historical accuracy, the narrative flowing naturally from the rules, high granularity in the rules--and treating them as a coherent agenda when they're nothing of the sort. Some people happen to value all those things, and you could call them "simulationists*," but you're not describing a distinct category of people, just picking the middle of a Venn diagram and slapping a label on it. I don't believe in gamism either, or narrativism, for much the same reasons. So: With regard to my rant quoted in the OP, where am I coming from? Not "simulationism," certainly. I'd say my agenda is a combination of "immersion," "challenge," "verisimilitude," "ease of play," and "popularity." I want a game that is immersive, that allows me to "step into my character" and make decisions as my character would. I want a game that offers me (through my character) interesting choices, both tactical and personal. I want a game in which the fictional reality presented to me is a convincing facade, one that doesn't cause me to question what's going on during play**. I want a game where the mechanics are relatively light and I don't have to spend a lot of mental energy manipulating numbers. And finally, I want to be able to find other people to play it! D&D meets these requirements pretty well--not perfectly on any of them, but well enough on all that I don't feel the need to go through the time and effort of finding a game that meets them better and convincing my group to switch. The question at issue was, "If you take ranger spells, and reskin them as non-magical abilities, does it matter that they have odd daily limits on their use?" I should first of all note that my rant suggests I care a lot more about this specific issue than I do; it's a nuisance, not a deal-breaker. It's been in D&D since days of yore, it's been bugging me that entire time, I live with it. But, I do object to many per-day abilities on immersion grounds. During play, I want to make decisions as my character would. If I am using a per-day ability, one of the factors weighing heavily in my decision-making is the knowledge that I only get limited use out of that ability per day--if I use it now, it may cost me a chance to use it later. If my character has no such knowledge, that's a problem for me, because now I'm making decisions on the basis of out-of-character knowledge. My character doesn't have to know the exact numbers; when I play a barbarian, the barbarian doesn't have to know that she gets exactly 3 rages per day. (This is an acceptable concession for ease of play.) But she knows that raging is tiring and if she does it too much, she'll be too tired to do it again. I object to limits I can't easily explain in character. [SIZE=-2]*Or possibly "narrativists," or maybe "gamists." My other problem with GNS is that the definitions of the words change radically depending on what hobbyhorse Ron Edwards is riding that day. **The words "during play" are crucial here. I do not require that the rules be realistic; I only require that they don't make me stop and go "Huh?" in the heat of the game. I also don't mind making out-of-character decisions, like picking feats on level-up, when not at the table.[/SIZE] [/QUOTE]
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