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Wildshape oddities.
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<blockquote data-quote="Li Shenron" data-source="post: 6117565" data-attributes="member: 1465"><p>I think the issue here, is that players may want to combine their PC's abilities with the wildshape animal form abilities.</p><p></p><p>In principle there's nothing wrong with a gamestyle based on looking for combos. In practice, some people love that, and some others hate that, so problems are mostly the result of playing in a group where players and DM have different tastes.</p><p></p><p>Personally I think <em>consistency</em> is important for a game to work out smoothly. And the problem with sneaking, tracking, bullrushing is that <em>sometimes</em> your PC abilities are better, and <em>sometimes</em> the animal form abilities are better. I would expect the average gamer to bias his opinion depending on the circumstances, i.e. what is more convenient for his character, and then try to justify it with common sense (but he would be able to justify the opposite just as well).</p><p></p><p>If you want to think more about the nature of those skills, ask yourself: how much does your <em>body </em>matters, how much does your <em>mind</em> matters, and by "mind" I mean including what you have <em>learned</em>. Sneaking and tracking are represented as ability checks, first is Dex and second is Wis or Int, and it makes sense that a high-Dex form (such as a cat) will make you sneak better than your human form, while you'll still have your Sneak skill dice bonus because you <em>learned</em> how to improve your sneakiness. Tracking OTOH would remain the same, unless the animal form has a racial bonus e.g. due to scent. Bullrushing is different since it's not a skill, it's based on Str so this will change, but if you have a feat that improves your bullrushing why not allowing it also in animal form? OTOH what if the animal form has a bullrushing feat?</p><p></p><p>Unfortunately things are often blurry... can you generalize these examples into consistent rules? My opinion is that you cannot. Because for instance that bullrushing feat you might have as a PC is something your character has <em>learned</em> and while the bullrushing check depends on your physical form (Str), the feat normally represents the result of training (at least because you can take it at level 9, thus the question... if it was innate, why didn't you already have it?). But the same feat that a bull might have by default, is not the result of training, it is innate in all bulls... but is it because of the body or the mind of the bull?</p><p></p><p>Same question can come up about racial abilities. A bonus to Spot and Listen can represent something innate but is it because your ears and eyes are better or because your mind is more alert (you might argue that Wisdom represents that, so you keep the Wis but lose the Spot/Listen benefit while wildshaping)? How about increased weapon dice (unlikely to come up in wildshape, but just as an example) is that coming from the race's nature or from the race's <em>culture</em>? How about increased hit dice? Physical therefore lost in wildshape, or more because of strong fighting spirit therefore retained?</p><p></p><p>My bottom line is, if even racial features cannot easily be sorted out, there will never be a consensus of what should remain and what should change in wildshape, so I would just always seek for the shortest, most compact form of the rules, and let each DM/group agree on a case-by-case basis about specifics.</p><p></p><p>Also, I would always remind my players that <em>wildshape</em> is there so that the Druid can change form when in different scenarios. Valid scenarios could be fighting, sneaking, tracking, climbing, flying, scouting (with increased perception), running fast, long-time travelling (including going without water), swimming, water-breathing, seeing in darkness... Most of these are going to be <em>very</em> useful in the game even without the player trying to stack or overlap all sorts of benefits. Personally I think the game is great when your Druid has tactical choices to make which imply changing shape, and not so great when you can just stack everything and remain in one single uber-form all the time.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Li Shenron, post: 6117565, member: 1465"] I think the issue here, is that players may want to combine their PC's abilities with the wildshape animal form abilities. In principle there's nothing wrong with a gamestyle based on looking for combos. In practice, some people love that, and some others hate that, so problems are mostly the result of playing in a group where players and DM have different tastes. Personally I think [I]consistency[/I] is important for a game to work out smoothly. And the problem with sneaking, tracking, bullrushing is that [I]sometimes[/I] your PC abilities are better, and [I]sometimes[/I] the animal form abilities are better. I would expect the average gamer to bias his opinion depending on the circumstances, i.e. what is more convenient for his character, and then try to justify it with common sense (but he would be able to justify the opposite just as well). If you want to think more about the nature of those skills, ask yourself: how much does your [I]body [/I]matters, how much does your [I]mind[/I] matters, and by "mind" I mean including what you have [I]learned[/I]. Sneaking and tracking are represented as ability checks, first is Dex and second is Wis or Int, and it makes sense that a high-Dex form (such as a cat) will make you sneak better than your human form, while you'll still have your Sneak skill dice bonus because you [I]learned[/I] how to improve your sneakiness. Tracking OTOH would remain the same, unless the animal form has a racial bonus e.g. due to scent. Bullrushing is different since it's not a skill, it's based on Str so this will change, but if you have a feat that improves your bullrushing why not allowing it also in animal form? OTOH what if the animal form has a bullrushing feat? Unfortunately things are often blurry... can you generalize these examples into consistent rules? My opinion is that you cannot. Because for instance that bullrushing feat you might have as a PC is something your character has [I]learned[/I] and while the bullrushing check depends on your physical form (Str), the feat normally represents the result of training (at least because you can take it at level 9, thus the question... if it was innate, why didn't you already have it?). But the same feat that a bull might have by default, is not the result of training, it is innate in all bulls... but is it because of the body or the mind of the bull? Same question can come up about racial abilities. A bonus to Spot and Listen can represent something innate but is it because your ears and eyes are better or because your mind is more alert (you might argue that Wisdom represents that, so you keep the Wis but lose the Spot/Listen benefit while wildshaping)? How about increased weapon dice (unlikely to come up in wildshape, but just as an example) is that coming from the race's nature or from the race's [I]culture[/I]? How about increased hit dice? Physical therefore lost in wildshape, or more because of strong fighting spirit therefore retained? My bottom line is, if even racial features cannot easily be sorted out, there will never be a consensus of what should remain and what should change in wildshape, so I would just always seek for the shortest, most compact form of the rules, and let each DM/group agree on a case-by-case basis about specifics. Also, I would always remind my players that [I]wildshape[/I] is there so that the Druid can change form when in different scenarios. Valid scenarios could be fighting, sneaking, tracking, climbing, flying, scouting (with increased perception), running fast, long-time travelling (including going without water), swimming, water-breathing, seeing in darkness... Most of these are going to be [I]very[/I] useful in the game even without the player trying to stack or overlap all sorts of benefits. Personally I think the game is great when your Druid has tactical choices to make which imply changing shape, and not so great when you can just stack everything and remain in one single uber-form all the time. [/QUOTE]
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