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<blockquote data-quote="jgsugden" data-source="post: 9198663" data-attributes="member: 2629"><p>This thread is ripe with people denying the PCs the use of their abilities ... making ti clear that there are more powerful magics that can reverse or negate the wish ... having enemies wish proof themself ... twist the wording of wish to punish the players maliciously ...</p><p></p><p>You're giving someone a race car and then telling them they can't drive it. </p><p></p><p>In improve there is an idea that you never say no. Instead, you say yes to whatever your scene partner gives you and add onto it. That is a cornerstone approach to high level D&D that is - in my experience - necessary to make a high level game work well. </p><p></p><p>What do I mean? Build upon what the PCs do rather than negate it. Instead of diminishing the abilities of the PCs through homebrew limitations specifically designed to negate the abilities of the PCs, let the abilities function as written and then ask what will happen next in the story. Try to anticipate what the PCs might do with their high level abilities and set up the fallout should they do it - not as a punishment, but as a way to further the story and make it interesting. </p><p></p><p>Obviously - I am not saying that you can never negate. We have Counterspell in the game. We have Anti-magic auras. We have Displ Magic. What I am saying is that these tactics should be short term challenges for the PCs, not ways to force a storyline to run in the longterm in ways that negate PC abilities. If a PC gets an ability, a good DM is looking for a way to let them use it in a cool way that advances the story. </p><p></p><p>Situation: The PCs use a wish to recover the lost artifact instead of venturing into a dungeon to recover it. Good! Dungeon delving is kind of beneath 17th level PCs. They should feel awesome that they could bypas the dungeon that way using powerful magics! Make them feel like it was an awesome deed - even if it only took a few seconds. Then, figure out what happens next. Is someone going to try to take it? Did you set up the item so that having it comes with problems (regardless of whether the PCs fought to get it or wished it into their hands)? Does the King think it is in the right hands when the PCs have it? Is someone else looking for it? </p><p></p><p>I have a bunch of elements of my campaign setting that are there specifically to support high level play. I have an organization in my setting that tracks artifacts and makes sure they do not end up getting concentrated in the wrong hands. I drop hints about this organization into the game from an early level - but the storylines that involve the organization do not kick in until high level. The group is ruled by 5 individuals covering much of the spectrum of alignments and interests. They put aside their agendas in order to make sure that no universe ending thing happens because artifiacts gather in the wrong hands. It is like Marvel's Illuminati if they had Doctor Doom and Thanos on the team. This group has a flexible reason to take an interest in high level PCs as the PCs get involved with powerful artifacts. It is one of a few dozen sources of story hooks that allow me to adapt to the things the high level PCs do. These are the types of high level tools that give the DM the ability to adapt to the powerful abilities of the PCs and carry their story forward while capitalizing upon the powers of the heroes.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="jgsugden, post: 9198663, member: 2629"] This thread is ripe with people denying the PCs the use of their abilities ... making ti clear that there are more powerful magics that can reverse or negate the wish ... having enemies wish proof themself ... twist the wording of wish to punish the players maliciously ... You're giving someone a race car and then telling them they can't drive it. In improve there is an idea that you never say no. Instead, you say yes to whatever your scene partner gives you and add onto it. That is a cornerstone approach to high level D&D that is - in my experience - necessary to make a high level game work well. What do I mean? Build upon what the PCs do rather than negate it. Instead of diminishing the abilities of the PCs through homebrew limitations specifically designed to negate the abilities of the PCs, let the abilities function as written and then ask what will happen next in the story. Try to anticipate what the PCs might do with their high level abilities and set up the fallout should they do it - not as a punishment, but as a way to further the story and make it interesting. Obviously - I am not saying that you can never negate. We have Counterspell in the game. We have Anti-magic auras. We have Displ Magic. What I am saying is that these tactics should be short term challenges for the PCs, not ways to force a storyline to run in the longterm in ways that negate PC abilities. If a PC gets an ability, a good DM is looking for a way to let them use it in a cool way that advances the story. Situation: The PCs use a wish to recover the lost artifact instead of venturing into a dungeon to recover it. Good! Dungeon delving is kind of beneath 17th level PCs. They should feel awesome that they could bypas the dungeon that way using powerful magics! Make them feel like it was an awesome deed - even if it only took a few seconds. Then, figure out what happens next. Is someone going to try to take it? Did you set up the item so that having it comes with problems (regardless of whether the PCs fought to get it or wished it into their hands)? Does the King think it is in the right hands when the PCs have it? Is someone else looking for it? I have a bunch of elements of my campaign setting that are there specifically to support high level play. I have an organization in my setting that tracks artifacts and makes sure they do not end up getting concentrated in the wrong hands. I drop hints about this organization into the game from an early level - but the storylines that involve the organization do not kick in until high level. The group is ruled by 5 individuals covering much of the spectrum of alignments and interests. They put aside their agendas in order to make sure that no universe ending thing happens because artifiacts gather in the wrong hands. It is like Marvel's Illuminati if they had Doctor Doom and Thanos on the team. This group has a flexible reason to take an interest in high level PCs as the PCs get involved with powerful artifacts. It is one of a few dozen sources of story hooks that allow me to adapt to the things the high level PCs do. These are the types of high level tools that give the DM the ability to adapt to the powerful abilities of the PCs and carry their story forward while capitalizing upon the powers of the heroes. [/QUOTE]
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