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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5977107" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>Then no WotC edition had enough fans to be sustainable. After all they literally pulled 3.0 off the shelves after two and a half years. They started work on 4e after three years of 3e. And they started work on 5e after 3 years of 4e. </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>It's still not perfect, granted. But it's far and away better than the systems any other edition of D&D has had.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Say outstanding to bad. But yes you can get pretty outstanding.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Or just impose a penalty for repeat skill use by the same PC or make it less desirable in the fiction.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>This I've never found a problem as long as I treat the skill challenge as a DM-side tool and make the players engage with the fiction.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Having a smart player of a stealthy PC in my group, no. That's not how it works. They provide one success from stealth. And then what? If they want to help the team succeed they start distracting the guards. Their first roll was against a hard stealth check not a medium one because they got as close to the guards as they thought possible while staying in cover. And their second roll was nature or bluff to sound like an animal near the guards, providing noise to distract them.</p><p> </p><p>If they can think how to leverage their awesome rather than just use it passively they aren't out of play.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>You mean their only non-combat choice other than some of their 17 feats and however many utility powers? (nine?) Oh, and depending on their class, their tricks, stances, and features? And even some attack powers? (And yes, I do take non-combat feats and mixed feats).</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Strictly false. About half the illusion school doesn't do damage, and neither does about two thirds of enchantment (although it does normally make the monsters wack each other which might count).</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Common misinterpretation of 4e. The DC by level challenges are based on the challenge level you are attempting, not the level of the PC attempting them. The vault door to the duke's treasure room is level 10 hard to pick whether you are level 1 or level 20.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>There's more to encourage it IMO than in any other edition.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>If you want a no-magic game 4e beats the pants off literally any other edition of D&D there has ever been. I'm playing in a Middle Earth game now - and the only magic the party is capable of is rituals (and we've not cast one yet). The party is still flexible and versatile and even covers all four roles (rohirrim skald, variag slayer, dwarf knight, elf hunter). We aren't even crippled by the lack of a healer.</p><p> </p><p>For no-magic you'd just have to swap the skald out with a warlord. Or even not bother.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5977107, member: 87792"] Then no WotC edition had enough fans to be sustainable. After all they literally pulled 3.0 off the shelves after two and a half years. They started work on 4e after three years of 3e. And they started work on 5e after 3 years of 4e. It's still not perfect, granted. But it's far and away better than the systems any other edition of D&D has had. Say outstanding to bad. But yes you can get pretty outstanding. Or just impose a penalty for repeat skill use by the same PC or make it less desirable in the fiction. This I've never found a problem as long as I treat the skill challenge as a DM-side tool and make the players engage with the fiction. Having a smart player of a stealthy PC in my group, no. That's not how it works. They provide one success from stealth. And then what? If they want to help the team succeed they start distracting the guards. Their first roll was against a hard stealth check not a medium one because they got as close to the guards as they thought possible while staying in cover. And their second roll was nature or bluff to sound like an animal near the guards, providing noise to distract them. If they can think how to leverage their awesome rather than just use it passively they aren't out of play. You mean their only non-combat choice other than some of their 17 feats and however many utility powers? (nine?) Oh, and depending on their class, their tricks, stances, and features? And even some attack powers? (And yes, I do take non-combat feats and mixed feats). Strictly false. About half the illusion school doesn't do damage, and neither does about two thirds of enchantment (although it does normally make the monsters wack each other which might count). Common misinterpretation of 4e. The DC by level challenges are based on the challenge level you are attempting, not the level of the PC attempting them. The vault door to the duke's treasure room is level 10 hard to pick whether you are level 1 or level 20. There's more to encourage it IMO than in any other edition. If you want a no-magic game 4e beats the pants off literally any other edition of D&D there has ever been. I'm playing in a Middle Earth game now - and the only magic the party is capable of is rituals (and we've not cast one yet). The party is still flexible and versatile and even covers all four roles (rohirrim skald, variag slayer, dwarf knight, elf hunter). We aren't even crippled by the lack of a healer. For no-magic you'd just have to swap the skald out with a warlord. Or even not bother. [/QUOTE]
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