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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Jester David" data-source="post: 5977757" data-attributes="member: 37579"><p>The disparity just gets bigger and bigger in 4e. Which was half my point. The fact the disparity starts smaller in 3e and gets larger (much, much larger) is really academic, as once the disparity gets larger than 10-15 there's no point in the untrained rolling. Both systems have the exact same flaw: non-specialists sit out and play assistant to the specialists. </p><p></p><p></p><p>So... your argument is 4e is different because you can drop a feat to remove/lower the disparity and you couldn't in 3e and that the disparity doesn't increase in level?</p><p>....</p><p>Except I just said it totally does.</p><p></p><p></p><p>No I'm not. Because the disparity doesn't really go away. Both editions are equally bad at the disparity. This is not a "3e skills are so much better than 4e argument" because it 3e weren't. There was a little more flexibility in 3e (you could choose NOT to put max ranks in certain skills) but that was very unlikely to happen unless the DM broke out the house rule beat stick. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Which are neutral since the specialist can also take them making their bonus even more obscene. </p><p></p><p>I'm mostly arguing skills in 4e didn't work. That they didn't really do anything to the skill system for 4e other than swap ranks for +1/2 level, change the 4x ranks at 1st level to the much higher +5 training, and reduce the number of skills. The developers gave skills a quick once over when they did SAGA and stopped refining and fixing. </p><p>4e skills stand out as the sore thumb of the edition, the weakest link in an otherwise pretty strong and tight chain. Which, in turn, killed Skill Challenges. Had the skill system been more balanced and tighter there wouldn't be all the talk of removing Skill Challenges.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jester David, post: 5977757, member: 37579"] The disparity just gets bigger and bigger in 4e. Which was half my point. The fact the disparity starts smaller in 3e and gets larger (much, much larger) is really academic, as once the disparity gets larger than 10-15 there's no point in the untrained rolling. Both systems have the exact same flaw: non-specialists sit out and play assistant to the specialists. So... your argument is 4e is different because you can drop a feat to remove/lower the disparity and you couldn't in 3e and that the disparity doesn't increase in level? .... Except I just said it totally does. No I'm not. Because the disparity doesn't really go away. Both editions are equally bad at the disparity. This is not a "3e skills are so much better than 4e argument" because it 3e weren't. There was a little more flexibility in 3e (you could choose NOT to put max ranks in certain skills) but that was very unlikely to happen unless the DM broke out the house rule beat stick. Which are neutral since the specialist can also take them making their bonus even more obscene. I'm mostly arguing skills in 4e didn't work. That they didn't really do anything to the skill system for 4e other than swap ranks for +1/2 level, change the 4x ranks at 1st level to the much higher +5 training, and reduce the number of skills. The developers gave skills a quick once over when they did SAGA and stopped refining and fixing. 4e skills stand out as the sore thumb of the edition, the weakest link in an otherwise pretty strong and tight chain. Which, in turn, killed Skill Challenges. Had the skill system been more balanced and tighter there wouldn't be all the talk of removing Skill Challenges. [/QUOTE]
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