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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Crazy Jerome" data-source="post: 5977907" data-attributes="member: 54877"><p>Yes, this is the key bit that is different. I'd argue, hypothetically, that in skilled hands, the outside observable differences, between running with straight skill checks versus a skill challenge, will approach zero. It will never get there entirely, but it will approach it. </p><p> </p><p>That is, there's really no inherent reason why, given d20 skill checks, you couldn't invent the skill challenge framework yourself. Because it is merely a framework on top of those skill checks. Practically speaking, most people wouldn't, but it could happen. </p><p> </p><p>OTOH, I'd also argue that everyone that uses straight skill checks skillfully does so in the context of some framework, whether developed ad hoc or more consciously. It's merely one that happens to work better for that person for the very good reason that everything in it was learned by experience.</p><p> </p><p>If I'm correct, then the advantage of the skill challenge framework is, as said above, that it helps some people get to their synthesized approach sooner. (I don't think it's any accident that many of us that found it such an advantage had the benefit of being familiar with some of the various narrative approaches.) The disadvantage of the skill challenge framework is the opposite side of that same coin, in that the same with any framework, if you get too attached to the framework itself, it may prevent you from adapting the underlying system to your style. </p><p> </p><p>Of course, one framework, or even a framework, aren't the only way to help here. The Take 10 rule in d20 is another example of exactly the same thing, a kind of formal guideline to "don't sweat the small stuff." Plenty of people figured that out all on their own, but if left to their own devices wouldn't have necessarily picked that exact implementation of the rule.</p><p> </p><p>Thus, it would be good to have multiple such rules, and maybe even multiple frameworks, with deliberate advice on how to to choose the ones that will help you and why. One of the reasons that the skill challenge examples and advice is so lousy in the initial implementation is that they are trying to make the skill challenges serve two incompatible agendas--the largely unspoken narrative one that SCs actually help but also as a kind of gamist "chase XP" one that are more implied by the advice, but falls apart mechanically when you look at it seriously.</p><p> </p><p>If you write advice and examples that are actually congruent with the framework or mechanics under inspection, then I think you'll find that such tools are good for some things, not so hot for others, which will in turn imply the need for other tools. So the push to standardize everything, so helpful in many areas and needed for making the game accessible, is harmful when you try to standardize across real playstyle differences (e.g. not mere genre).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Crazy Jerome, post: 5977907, member: 54877"] Yes, this is the key bit that is different. I'd argue, hypothetically, that in skilled hands, the outside observable differences, between running with straight skill checks versus a skill challenge, will approach zero. It will never get there entirely, but it will approach it. That is, there's really no inherent reason why, given d20 skill checks, you couldn't invent the skill challenge framework yourself. Because it is merely a framework on top of those skill checks. Practically speaking, most people wouldn't, but it could happen. OTOH, I'd also argue that everyone that uses straight skill checks skillfully does so in the context of some framework, whether developed ad hoc or more consciously. It's merely one that happens to work better for that person for the very good reason that everything in it was learned by experience. If I'm correct, then the advantage of the skill challenge framework is, as said above, that it helps some people get to their synthesized approach sooner. (I don't think it's any accident that many of us that found it such an advantage had the benefit of being familiar with some of the various narrative approaches.) The disadvantage of the skill challenge framework is the opposite side of that same coin, in that the same with any framework, if you get too attached to the framework itself, it may prevent you from adapting the underlying system to your style. Of course, one framework, or even a framework, aren't the only way to help here. The Take 10 rule in d20 is another example of exactly the same thing, a kind of formal guideline to "don't sweat the small stuff." Plenty of people figured that out all on their own, but if left to their own devices wouldn't have necessarily picked that exact implementation of the rule. Thus, it would be good to have multiple such rules, and maybe even multiple frameworks, with deliberate advice on how to to choose the ones that will help you and why. One of the reasons that the skill challenge examples and advice is so lousy in the initial implementation is that they are trying to make the skill challenges serve two incompatible agendas--the largely unspoken narrative one that SCs actually help but also as a kind of gamist "chase XP" one that are more implied by the advice, but falls apart mechanically when you look at it seriously. If you write advice and examples that are actually congruent with the framework or mechanics under inspection, then I think you'll find that such tools are good for some things, not so hot for others, which will in turn imply the need for other tools. So the push to standardize everything, so helpful in many areas and needed for making the game accessible, is harmful when you try to standardize across real playstyle differences (e.g. not mere genre). [/QUOTE]
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