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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Jester David" data-source="post: 5977931" data-attributes="member: 37579"><p>Again, not arguing 3e had a perfect skill system. Or a better skill system. Or even a less bad skill system. </p><p>I am arguing 4e has a broken skill system independent of everything but itself. </p><p></p><p>As you say above, for a Skill Challenge, just training or a high ability modifier nets a 75% success rate. Which means that both is 100%. There is no chance of failure. At first level. That is the definition of broken. And, at higher levels when you put ability score boosts into primary and secondary stats, the disparity does increase. And, unlike attack rolls, there are many, many ways of boosting your skills.</p><p></p><p>Again, it's not bad or unfixable or not worth doing. I hope Skill Challenges make it into 5e. </p><p></p><p>But let's imagine 4e skills differently for a moment. </p><p>Remove the static numerical bonuses from races and backgrounds and just make that "this skill is always a class skill". So all elves can train Nature. And remove all the feats and items that only add a static bonus to skills from the game. And instead of a +5 bonus for training, imagine if it was a reroll (like 5e's advantage), so training didn't increase your potential but maximized your natural talent. </p><p>Suddenly that DC table looks a little flatter. There are no autosuccesses because a 1 still fails. How do Skill Challenges look now?</p><p></p><p> </p><p>I wanted an example. It was the best that came to mind at the time and worked perfectly aside from the potential association. But I was very clear to emphasise that 4e did not equal <em>Batman & Robin</em>. </p><p>Bond might have been better, with 4e being Brosnan. (I always say the movies were soft but he was my favorite Bond.)</p><p></p><p> </p><p>They are great books. But 4e was never great at teaching rules mastery or letting DMs understand the hows and whys behind a rule. Great for managing players and running games but less so for educating how to make a call or arbitrate. My complaint with them is entirely not what they contain but what they left out (and given how tiny they were compared to the other core rulebooks this was an easily correctable oversight).</p><p>But those are still great books. I recommend the DMG2 to new Pathfinder GMs all the time. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Exactly. Give the guidelines, set the bar, and provide examples. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Heh. Seconded. </p><p>Every time there's a gap in a column or on a page... filler Gygax table!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jester David, post: 5977931, member: 37579"] Again, not arguing 3e had a perfect skill system. Or a better skill system. Or even a less bad skill system. I am arguing 4e has a broken skill system independent of everything but itself. As you say above, for a Skill Challenge, just training or a high ability modifier nets a 75% success rate. Which means that both is 100%. There is no chance of failure. At first level. That is the definition of broken. And, at higher levels when you put ability score boosts into primary and secondary stats, the disparity does increase. And, unlike attack rolls, there are many, many ways of boosting your skills. Again, it's not bad or unfixable or not worth doing. I hope Skill Challenges make it into 5e. But let's imagine 4e skills differently for a moment. Remove the static numerical bonuses from races and backgrounds and just make that "this skill is always a class skill". So all elves can train Nature. And remove all the feats and items that only add a static bonus to skills from the game. And instead of a +5 bonus for training, imagine if it was a reroll (like 5e's advantage), so training didn't increase your potential but maximized your natural talent. Suddenly that DC table looks a little flatter. There are no autosuccesses because a 1 still fails. How do Skill Challenges look now? I wanted an example. It was the best that came to mind at the time and worked perfectly aside from the potential association. But I was very clear to emphasise that 4e did not equal [I]Batman & Robin[/I]. Bond might have been better, with 4e being Brosnan. (I always say the movies were soft but he was my favorite Bond.) They are great books. But 4e was never great at teaching rules mastery or letting DMs understand the hows and whys behind a rule. Great for managing players and running games but less so for educating how to make a call or arbitrate. My complaint with them is entirely not what they contain but what they left out (and given how tiny they were compared to the other core rulebooks this was an easily correctable oversight). But those are still great books. I recommend the DMG2 to new Pathfinder GMs all the time. Exactly. Give the guidelines, set the bar, and provide examples. Heh. Seconded. Every time there's a gap in a column or on a page... filler Gygax table! [/QUOTE]
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