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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5978125" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I'm not sure that this way of framing things, in terms of a single dichotomy, is helpful. It doesn't seem to capture the range of differences, nor the break points. For example, not everyone who sees the game in mechanical terms is interested in "winning" - they might, rather, be interested in having the mechanics deliver their experience of the fiction without the need to layer any mechanics-divorced fluff over the top. (This is the sort of playstyle I would associated with Burning Wheel, and with 4e, or at least the way I read and play 4e. Whereas I think 2nd ed AD&D is close to the opposite in its default playstyle.)</p><p></p><p>Or, to pick up on your reference to "fluff" limiting options: I don't object to a game in which oozes can't be tripped. But if this is going to be anything other than the most corner of corner cases, write the mechanics to support it (eg make creatures with the "ooze" keyword immune to tripping, just as, in 4e, creatures with the "swarm" keyword are immune to forced movement from melee and ranged attacks).</p><p></p><p>If I had to reduce everything to a single dichotomy, for me it would be about the relationship between mechanics and fiction - is the main basis for experiencing the fiction, as a player, by experiencing the mechanics? or are the two independent? (I think 4e goes the first way, 2nd ed AD&D the second way; I think many of those who complain about caster dominance reject the response "just don't have your wizard memorise those spells" because that approach requires separating the fiction from the mechanics in a way at odds with the first playstyle.) But in fact this dichotomy doesn't capture all the differences, even if captures one of the more salient to which many others are related.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Elaborating on TwinBahamut's point, I don't see this as having anything to do with "protecting people from bad GMs".</p><p></p><p>For me, it's about GMing a certain sort of game without having to juggle a conflict of interest: I want to be able to frame a scene, have the PCs start to engage with it, and then play my NPCs, monsters, traps etc to the hilt, witout having to hold back on the action resolution side. Of course many aspects of action resolution require me to exercise judgement (who attacks whom?, should I narrate the failed Diplomacy check as the beginning of a thunderstorm?, etc) but I want to be able to do this confident in the knowledge that there is a robust mechanical underpinning which will tell me whether things are running for or against the PCs without me having to make <em>that</em> up myself.</p><p></p><p>I think I'm a fairly good GM, but that doesn't mean that I don't need the game to have the right tools to support the GMing techniques I want to use.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5978125, member: 42582"] I'm not sure that this way of framing things, in terms of a single dichotomy, is helpful. It doesn't seem to capture the range of differences, nor the break points. For example, not everyone who sees the game in mechanical terms is interested in "winning" - they might, rather, be interested in having the mechanics deliver their experience of the fiction without the need to layer any mechanics-divorced fluff over the top. (This is the sort of playstyle I would associated with Burning Wheel, and with 4e, or at least the way I read and play 4e. Whereas I think 2nd ed AD&D is close to the opposite in its default playstyle.) Or, to pick up on your reference to "fluff" limiting options: I don't object to a game in which oozes can't be tripped. But if this is going to be anything other than the most corner of corner cases, write the mechanics to support it (eg make creatures with the "ooze" keyword immune to tripping, just as, in 4e, creatures with the "swarm" keyword are immune to forced movement from melee and ranged attacks). If I had to reduce everything to a single dichotomy, for me it would be about the relationship between mechanics and fiction - is the main basis for experiencing the fiction, as a player, by experiencing the mechanics? or are the two independent? (I think 4e goes the first way, 2nd ed AD&D the second way; I think many of those who complain about caster dominance reject the response "just don't have your wizard memorise those spells" because that approach requires separating the fiction from the mechanics in a way at odds with the first playstyle.) But in fact this dichotomy doesn't capture all the differences, even if captures one of the more salient to which many others are related. Elaborating on TwinBahamut's point, I don't see this as having anything to do with "protecting people from bad GMs". For me, it's about GMing a certain sort of game without having to juggle a conflict of interest: I want to be able to frame a scene, have the PCs start to engage with it, and then play my NPCs, monsters, traps etc to the hilt, witout having to hold back on the action resolution side. Of course many aspects of action resolution require me to exercise judgement (who attacks whom?, should I narrate the failed Diplomacy check as the beginning of a thunderstorm?, etc) but I want to be able to do this confident in the knowledge that there is a robust mechanical underpinning which will tell me whether things are running for or against the PCs without me having to make [I]that[/I] up myself. I think I'm a fairly good GM, but that doesn't mean that I don't need the game to have the right tools to support the GMing techniques I want to use. [/QUOTE]
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