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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 5978629" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>I quite strongly disagree that the gorge exists in a quantum state, even as a thought experiment. The gorge neither exists as a superposition of states nor as "there" or "not there". It is an idea, manifested or not manifested, within a work of fiction. Perhaps if you were a character within that fiction and that fiction was real then you could philosophize about whether the gorge exists in a quantum state of "there" or "not there" or a superposition of the two (like Rosencrantz and Gildenstern). But (i) you are not a character within that fiction and thus aware that the fiction is not real and (ii) that fiction is not real.</p><p></p><p>But beyond that, even if I did agree that the gorge existed in a quantum state, it would then easily enough be said that every single aspect of the game exists in a quantum state (either as a superposition of states or "there" or "not there") prior to the moment of its actualization through force of creative will. You don't seem to have a problem with the proposed "quantum state" of every bit of the rest of the fiction...why is the gorge particularly troublesome? It manifests through the creative will of the one that endows it with "life" just as the gorge does.</p><p></p><p>As far as player agency goes, I used to be in agreement with you. I probably used to have the exact same tastes, preferences and positions as you. However, since then I've realized that there are truly different design spaces for roleplaying games in general and game mechanics in specific. And those rpgs and mechanics can provide different types of "player agency" through their aims and resolution. One form of "player agency" can be "I want to be be able to assume author stance and dictate the terms of the fiction and manifest something out of whole cloth to perpetuate my idea of interesting, dynamic content that supports or undermines my character." Or "binary results of checks and linear flow from the last check in the series to the resultant fiction narrows results so that they become cliche', trite and it does not allow me to actualize my idea of an interesting, dynamically framed scene where my heroic character is ensconced in high fantasy adventure." These are alternate forms of player agency. What's more, you can still maintain your form of agency outside of skill challenges. You can play 4e as fully simulationist (standard, binary checks that result in cause and effect coupled outcomes for rudimentary tasks + simulationist skinned combat) while still using Skill Challenges to close off a particular, high-pitched, tension-inducing scene (a rooftop chase through the city, a parlay with pirates, a high seas navigation of a rocky harbor into a cove through treacherous conditions) into an aggregation of "fiction first", decision-point-centric checks and resultant "micro-outcomes" that lead to further "fiction first", decision points that are all "trope/genre relevant"...and ultimately their aggregation dictates the resultant fiction...rather than a linear, simulationist flow of the last check in the series to the resultant fiction.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 5978629, member: 6696971"] I quite strongly disagree that the gorge exists in a quantum state, even as a thought experiment. The gorge neither exists as a superposition of states nor as "there" or "not there". It is an idea, manifested or not manifested, within a work of fiction. Perhaps if you were a character within that fiction and that fiction was real then you could philosophize about whether the gorge exists in a quantum state of "there" or "not there" or a superposition of the two (like Rosencrantz and Gildenstern). But (i) you are not a character within that fiction and thus aware that the fiction is not real and (ii) that fiction is not real. But beyond that, even if I did agree that the gorge existed in a quantum state, it would then easily enough be said that every single aspect of the game exists in a quantum state (either as a superposition of states or "there" or "not there") prior to the moment of its actualization through force of creative will. You don't seem to have a problem with the proposed "quantum state" of every bit of the rest of the fiction...why is the gorge particularly troublesome? It manifests through the creative will of the one that endows it with "life" just as the gorge does. As far as player agency goes, I used to be in agreement with you. I probably used to have the exact same tastes, preferences and positions as you. However, since then I've realized that there are truly different design spaces for roleplaying games in general and game mechanics in specific. And those rpgs and mechanics can provide different types of "player agency" through their aims and resolution. One form of "player agency" can be "I want to be be able to assume author stance and dictate the terms of the fiction and manifest something out of whole cloth to perpetuate my idea of interesting, dynamic content that supports or undermines my character." Or "binary results of checks and linear flow from the last check in the series to the resultant fiction narrows results so that they become cliche', trite and it does not allow me to actualize my idea of an interesting, dynamically framed scene where my heroic character is ensconced in high fantasy adventure." These are alternate forms of player agency. What's more, you can still maintain your form of agency outside of skill challenges. You can play 4e as fully simulationist (standard, binary checks that result in cause and effect coupled outcomes for rudimentary tasks + simulationist skinned combat) while still using Skill Challenges to close off a particular, high-pitched, tension-inducing scene (a rooftop chase through the city, a parlay with pirates, a high seas navigation of a rocky harbor into a cove through treacherous conditions) into an aggregation of "fiction first", decision-point-centric checks and resultant "micro-outcomes" that lead to further "fiction first", decision points that are all "trope/genre relevant"...and ultimately their aggregation dictates the resultant fiction...rather than a linear, simulationist flow of the last check in the series to the resultant fiction. [/QUOTE]
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