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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Crazy Jerome" data-source="post: 5979344" data-attributes="member: 54877"><p>This is all an argument basically about timing on its surface. When can the gorge be placed? When can it not? In D&D, even with skill challenges, I'm going to tend towards not placing the gorge after a failed riding roll, because I happen to like the idea that all the pieces are in place,<strong> if only in my head</strong>, before any rolls hit the table.</p><p> </p><p>Which means that from the player's perspective, there may not be much difference. I mean, if the player states that he wants his PC to escape by riding away, and I say go ahead, without any thought of a gorge, then if he fails the roll, I'll not include a gorge. OTOH, as he is picking up his dice, I'm already thinking about failure conditions. If a gorge fits logically into the world and pacing and feel of the story as it is rolling, then that's what I've already decided upon for failure.</p><p> </p><p>I'll grant that I'm completely quirky about this compared to most people, as this mainly only directly affects the fiction as imagined in my head, not the players. Maybe it's vanity. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /> But I do think that for me it's a self-imposed limit that leads, indirectly, to a greater consistency in the imagined game world for the players.</p><p> </p><p>Whereas, in BW, the constant harping on <strong>known</strong> stakes and intents, even if you must explicitly state them, means that this kind of problem doesn't arise. Either the gorge is a piece of color, narrated by DM or player, due to a crucial roll--or series of rolls--or the gorge is implied by the stakes, intents, and skills brought to bear. Namely, the objection that local knowledge is not considered wouldn't come up, because a BW character trying to get away is going to use Riding and (This Local Area)-Wise and anything else that pertains, stated clearly before any rolls are attempted. </p><p> </p><p>Since I've ported that mentality to skill challenges, as I don't think they work as well without it, I can safely say that the quantum gorge would not arise in play for me. Anything could be in place, if only in my head, before the dice hit the table. But any skill that is relevant will also be in the discussion. That's for a given round of a skill challenge. The next round is a chance for everyone to react to circumstances and the flow of the story. So a gorge appearing in the next round is no different than anything else I spin out of the known, consistent world reacting to the players' actions. </p><p> </p><p>I don't pretend that my way is the only way to deal with this issue. I do think that to the extent you worry about continuity issues, you'll get driven to some form of pure process simulation OR something very much like stakes and intents. I was already 3/4s there to stakes and intents when I first encountered the terms. So that was an easy choice for me. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Crazy Jerome, post: 5979344, member: 54877"] This is all an argument basically about timing on its surface. When can the gorge be placed? When can it not? In D&D, even with skill challenges, I'm going to tend towards not placing the gorge after a failed riding roll, because I happen to like the idea that all the pieces are in place,[B] if only in my head[/B], before any rolls hit the table. Which means that from the player's perspective, there may not be much difference. I mean, if the player states that he wants his PC to escape by riding away, and I say go ahead, without any thought of a gorge, then if he fails the roll, I'll not include a gorge. OTOH, as he is picking up his dice, I'm already thinking about failure conditions. If a gorge fits logically into the world and pacing and feel of the story as it is rolling, then that's what I've already decided upon for failure. I'll grant that I'm completely quirky about this compared to most people, as this mainly only directly affects the fiction as imagined in my head, not the players. Maybe it's vanity. :D But I do think that for me it's a self-imposed limit that leads, indirectly, to a greater consistency in the imagined game world for the players. Whereas, in BW, the constant harping on [B]known[/B] stakes and intents, even if you must explicitly state them, means that this kind of problem doesn't arise. Either the gorge is a piece of color, narrated by DM or player, due to a crucial roll--or series of rolls--or the gorge is implied by the stakes, intents, and skills brought to bear. Namely, the objection that local knowledge is not considered wouldn't come up, because a BW character trying to get away is going to use Riding and (This Local Area)-Wise and anything else that pertains, stated clearly before any rolls are attempted. Since I've ported that mentality to skill challenges, as I don't think they work as well without it, I can safely say that the quantum gorge would not arise in play for me. Anything could be in place, if only in my head, before the dice hit the table. But any skill that is relevant will also be in the discussion. That's for a given round of a skill challenge. The next round is a chance for everyone to react to circumstances and the flow of the story. So a gorge appearing in the next round is no different than anything else I spin out of the known, consistent world reacting to the players' actions. I don't pretend that my way is the only way to deal with this issue. I do think that to the extent you worry about continuity issues, you'll get driven to some form of pure process simulation OR something very much like stakes and intents. I was already 3/4s there to stakes and intents when I first encountered the terms. So that was an easy choice for me. :D [/QUOTE]
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