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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5979457" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I'm still not following.</p><p></p><p>The PC (we are imagining) is a person, learning, practising, and cultivating his/her talents like a person. The PC does not spend points, choose feats, etc.</p><p></p><p>People learn many things that they didn't plan or desire to learn, and fail to learn many things that they did plan or desire to learn.</p><p></p><p>PCs, on the other hand, always learn exactly what their players want them to, however exactly that comports with the PC's imagined desires (and subject to the character development rules).</p><p></p><p>So there is already a gap between the PC and the player in this resepct.</p><p></p><p>Furthermore, in the resolution system we are imagining, the way a player ensures that his/her PC is better at escaping on horseback is by improving Riding skill. So, as the player imagines that his/her PC is getting better at reading the ground while riding, learning the layout of the local land for the purposes of riding across it, etc, the way that s/he gives mechanical voice to this is to improve the PC's riding skill.</p><p></p><p>Only if you think (i) that it is <em>the PC</em> who is spending points on riding skill, and (ii) that spending points on riding skill correlates strictly to skill at riding, does any issue arise. But (i) is not the case. And, given the resolution mechanics under discussion, nor is (ii). Riding skill is a player resource for ensuring that his/her PC does well at things when riding is involved.</p><p></p><p>(You might say: what if the PC is now on foot - does s/he forget the layout of the land? This is the sort of corner case to which skill systems give rise, like the sharp boundary between Acrobatics and Athletics in 4e, or between the mechanical skill to pick locks and to disarm traps in pre-4e versions of D&D.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As I said above, for the player to improve Riding <em>is</em> for the player to improve his/her PC's ability to succeed at tasks while riding.</p><p></p><p>But this is also why, in an earlier post upthread, I asked what system we are meant to be envisioning here. For example, if the system has a skill like Local Geographic Knowledge and I (as a player) have my PC improve that skill, then next time I am escaping on horseback <em>I will use that skill</em>, either directly, or to augment my Riding skill. Heck, in 4e, there is no distinct Riding or Local Knowledge skill - they both fall under Nature skill (although depending on context riding might also involve an Endurance or Acrobatics check, and some aspects of local geography might involve a History check) - and so the professed dilemma for PC development doesn't even arise.</p><p></p><p>Upthread someone canavassed narrating, instead of a gorge, that the horse becomes lamed. What if the PC decides that s/he needs to improve his/her Animal Grooming/Handling skills ("If only I'd looked after my horse better, it wouldn't have been lamed by that jump!")? Or, if instead of a gorge, the PC falls off the horse, and thinks "If only I had a better sense of balance, I wouldn't have fallen!" - and the player roleplays this out by improving Acrobatics or Balance of whatever the salient skill in the system is. There is nothing special about the gorge here - it's about interpreting skills in a process simulation fashion, and siloing them without an adequate system of augments. Most scene-resolution system frameworks that I'm aware of (HeroWars/Quest and Burning Wheel especially come to mind here) have a range of techniques expressly for the purpose of dealing with this issue. In 4e skill challenges, the relevant techniques are (i) broad rather than narrow skill descriptors, and (ii) augments (known technically as secondary checks) within a skill challenge.</p><p></p><p>Right. This is why the mechanics matter. What skill is being tested? What skill or skills are being used as augments? What range of skills does the system have?</p><p></p><p>Has this dilemma for PC development ever <em>actually</em> arisen, or is it purely hypothetical, based on running a skill challenge (a 4e mechanic) in 3E (which has distinct Riding and (multiple?) Local Knowledge skills) without allowing for augments (which may not be part of the 3E skill system, but are part of the skill challenge resolution framework)?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5979457, member: 42582"] I'm still not following. The PC (we are imagining) is a person, learning, practising, and cultivating his/her talents like a person. The PC does not spend points, choose feats, etc. People learn many things that they didn't plan or desire to learn, and fail to learn many things that they did plan or desire to learn. PCs, on the other hand, always learn exactly what their players want them to, however exactly that comports with the PC's imagined desires (and subject to the character development rules). So there is already a gap between the PC and the player in this resepct. Furthermore, in the resolution system we are imagining, the way a player ensures that his/her PC is better at escaping on horseback is by improving Riding skill. So, as the player imagines that his/her PC is getting better at reading the ground while riding, learning the layout of the local land for the purposes of riding across it, etc, the way that s/he gives mechanical voice to this is to improve the PC's riding skill. Only if you think (i) that it is [I]the PC[/I] who is spending points on riding skill, and (ii) that spending points on riding skill correlates strictly to skill at riding, does any issue arise. But (i) is not the case. And, given the resolution mechanics under discussion, nor is (ii). Riding skill is a player resource for ensuring that his/her PC does well at things when riding is involved. (You might say: what if the PC is now on foot - does s/he forget the layout of the land? This is the sort of corner case to which skill systems give rise, like the sharp boundary between Acrobatics and Athletics in 4e, or between the mechanical skill to pick locks and to disarm traps in pre-4e versions of D&D.) As I said above, for the player to improve Riding [I]is[/I] for the player to improve his/her PC's ability to succeed at tasks while riding. But this is also why, in an earlier post upthread, I asked what system we are meant to be envisioning here. For example, if the system has a skill like Local Geographic Knowledge and I (as a player) have my PC improve that skill, then next time I am escaping on horseback [I]I will use that skill[/I], either directly, or to augment my Riding skill. Heck, in 4e, there is no distinct Riding or Local Knowledge skill - they both fall under Nature skill (although depending on context riding might also involve an Endurance or Acrobatics check, and some aspects of local geography might involve a History check) - and so the professed dilemma for PC development doesn't even arise. Upthread someone canavassed narrating, instead of a gorge, that the horse becomes lamed. What if the PC decides that s/he needs to improve his/her Animal Grooming/Handling skills ("If only I'd looked after my horse better, it wouldn't have been lamed by that jump!")? Or, if instead of a gorge, the PC falls off the horse, and thinks "If only I had a better sense of balance, I wouldn't have fallen!" - and the player roleplays this out by improving Acrobatics or Balance of whatever the salient skill in the system is. There is nothing special about the gorge here - it's about interpreting skills in a process simulation fashion, and siloing them without an adequate system of augments. Most scene-resolution system frameworks that I'm aware of (HeroWars/Quest and Burning Wheel especially come to mind here) have a range of techniques expressly for the purpose of dealing with this issue. In 4e skill challenges, the relevant techniques are (i) broad rather than narrow skill descriptors, and (ii) augments (known technically as secondary checks) within a skill challenge. Right. This is why the mechanics matter. What skill is being tested? What skill or skills are being used as augments? What range of skills does the system have? Has this dilemma for PC development ever [I]actually[/I] arisen, or is it purely hypothetical, based on running a skill challenge (a 4e mechanic) in 3E (which has distinct Riding and (multiple?) Local Knowledge skills) without allowing for augments (which may not be part of the 3E skill system, but are part of the skill challenge resolution framework)? [/QUOTE]
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