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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="chaochou" data-source="post: 5980058" data-attributes="member: 99817"><p>These are interesting and multi-faceted questions. So these answers are for discussion, with no pretense at being 'correct' or definitive in any way.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think what's slowly been driven at is the difference which is usually highlighted between 'task' and 'conflict' resolution.</p><p></p><p>I'm on a horse being pursued by some people who mean me harm and I want to escape...</p><p></p><p>If I use task resolution to ride away the roll answers the question 'How well do I ride my horse?'</p><p></p><p>Great. The problem (for some) here is that is does not answer the question 'Do I escape?' and if you iterate further through the process - okay I failed ride and fell off my horse, now what? Okay I hide. I failed that, okay, I climb a tree... etc none of these rolls are answering the question 'Do I escape?'. Even if I make my ride check it still doesn't tell me if I escaped.</p><p></p><p>In the absence of a structure - like 3 successes before 3 failures - there has to be some other process if you are to ever arrive at an answer. GM fiat? Group concensus? Player fails 10 rolls and still narrates an escape? There's nothing objectively 'wrong' with any of these - they just don't suit everyone's taste.</p><p></p><p>OTOH, you have 'conflict resolution' which answers the question 'Do I escape?' but leaves the process of escape open to interpretation (how open is up to the group). You failed ride, you're at a gorge...</p><p></p><p>So my failed 'ride' roll tells me is that I haven't escaped, but leaves the how and why to the group to fill in the fiction. Personally, I think it's important in this situation that the horse still matters in the fiction. Okay I'm backed into a gorge, but I have my horse so I still have all my possessions. I've ridden a while, so I've possibly put some distance between me and the pursuers. These things would not be the case had I used Athletics instead.</p><p></p><p>In other words, the difference between using 'Ride' to ride away and using 'Athletics' to run away is still used as the basis for determining 'what happens next', but in a broad rather than specific way.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Firstly I don't think the gorge example shows a disregard for causal connection. I think it's a matter of degree. The gorge was explained as 'I was concentrating so hard on riding I wasn't paying attention to where I was going.' That's still a cause and effect, just a much looser interpretation of what it means to make a ride check based on intent rather than process (as I tried to discuss in task vs conflict).</p><p></p><p>But more generally - I think you're getting into questions of authority and credibility. That is 'Who can say what and have it accepted into the game as having happened?'</p><p></p><p>So if I'm running Burning Wheel and a player says - "Ahh, how about if I make this stealth roll I find an old secret tunnel going under the castle?" I'd be like "Hell, yeah!" Same with Apocalpyse World or HeroWars or Diaspora. Because I run very collobaratively in those games - my job is to take players' ideas and then add my twist in a way that gives the players new ideas and ways to riff off them to develop the situation.</p><p></p><p>But I'm playing in an L5R game right now (same group as BW, HeroWars and Diaspora) where I couldn't do that. It's not how we're playing this particular game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="chaochou, post: 5980058, member: 99817"] These are interesting and multi-faceted questions. So these answers are for discussion, with no pretense at being 'correct' or definitive in any way. I think what's slowly been driven at is the difference which is usually highlighted between 'task' and 'conflict' resolution. I'm on a horse being pursued by some people who mean me harm and I want to escape... If I use task resolution to ride away the roll answers the question 'How well do I ride my horse?' Great. The problem (for some) here is that is does not answer the question 'Do I escape?' and if you iterate further through the process - okay I failed ride and fell off my horse, now what? Okay I hide. I failed that, okay, I climb a tree... etc none of these rolls are answering the question 'Do I escape?'. Even if I make my ride check it still doesn't tell me if I escaped. In the absence of a structure - like 3 successes before 3 failures - there has to be some other process if you are to ever arrive at an answer. GM fiat? Group concensus? Player fails 10 rolls and still narrates an escape? There's nothing objectively 'wrong' with any of these - they just don't suit everyone's taste. OTOH, you have 'conflict resolution' which answers the question 'Do I escape?' but leaves the process of escape open to interpretation (how open is up to the group). You failed ride, you're at a gorge... So my failed 'ride' roll tells me is that I haven't escaped, but leaves the how and why to the group to fill in the fiction. Personally, I think it's important in this situation that the horse still matters in the fiction. Okay I'm backed into a gorge, but I have my horse so I still have all my possessions. I've ridden a while, so I've possibly put some distance between me and the pursuers. These things would not be the case had I used Athletics instead. In other words, the difference between using 'Ride' to ride away and using 'Athletics' to run away is still used as the basis for determining 'what happens next', but in a broad rather than specific way. Firstly I don't think the gorge example shows a disregard for causal connection. I think it's a matter of degree. The gorge was explained as 'I was concentrating so hard on riding I wasn't paying attention to where I was going.' That's still a cause and effect, just a much looser interpretation of what it means to make a ride check based on intent rather than process (as I tried to discuss in task vs conflict). But more generally - I think you're getting into questions of authority and credibility. That is 'Who can say what and have it accepted into the game as having happened?' So if I'm running Burning Wheel and a player says - "Ahh, how about if I make this stealth roll I find an old secret tunnel going under the castle?" I'd be like "Hell, yeah!" Same with Apocalpyse World or HeroWars or Diaspora. Because I run very collobaratively in those games - my job is to take players' ideas and then add my twist in a way that gives the players new ideas and ways to riff off them to develop the situation. But I'm playing in an L5R game right now (same group as BW, HeroWars and Diaspora) where I couldn't do that. It's not how we're playing this particular game. [/QUOTE]
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