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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Mallus" data-source="post: 5986827" data-attributes="member: 3887"><p>In AD&D (which I'm running now), how do you...</p><p></p><p>... try to pick a lock after failing the first attempt? (the rules state a thief must <em>gain a level</em> before attempting the lock again, making lock-picking far worse than a Daily -- it's a Level-y)</p><p></p><p>... shoot an arrow at a giant's head? (the system doesn't model hit location, making this possible only by superseding the rules). </p><p></p><p>... knock an opponent down? (possible only as a random result under the unarmed combat procedures) </p><p></p><p>... feint to the left? (assumed to be part of a PCs attack sequence, but explicitly attempting a feint has no meaning under the rules, thus a player stating such an attempt is in conflict with what the rules describe). </p><p></p><p>... break a limb? (injuries are not modeled as anything other than hit point loss, even though breaks should be common giving the physically dangerous activities PCs engage in). </p><p></p><p>... learn a weapon not on your class list? (this restriction is wholly artificial and not even representative of the much of the source fiction)</p><p></p><p>... start a Thieves Guild prior to 10th level? (again, an artificial restriction which can easily be at odds with the in-game fiction, as it is in my current campaign)</p><p></p><p>I could go on. </p><p></p><p>There has always been friction, disagreement, ahem, dissociation between the rules and the in-game fiction. It's a product of the abstractions the rules are built out of. The association between the two is the produced, during play, by the people playing the game.</p><p></p><p>Sure, they are different preference when it comes to the various mechanics. But they're almost all dissociated, in the sense they aren't --and make no claim of being-- process simulations, and require mental action on the part of the players/DM to fit them to the imagined in-game space. </p><p></p><p>The game is simply, frequently, at odds with the fiction. We've known this since the beginning. Older versions of D&D accepted this without making a fuss.</p><p></p><p>My biggest problem with the whole 'dissociated mechanics' thing isn't that it's an inherently bad critical framework for analyzing the rules -- it's that most people apply it in a completely arbitrary fashion to criticize mechanics they don't like, while turning a blind eye, or worse, trotting out pretzel logic, to all the places, usually in older editions, where it also applies.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mallus, post: 5986827, member: 3887"] In AD&D (which I'm running now), how do you... ... try to pick a lock after failing the first attempt? (the rules state a thief must [i]gain a level[/i] before attempting the lock again, making lock-picking far worse than a Daily -- it's a Level-y) ... shoot an arrow at a giant's head? (the system doesn't model hit location, making this possible only by superseding the rules). ... knock an opponent down? (possible only as a random result under the unarmed combat procedures) ... feint to the left? (assumed to be part of a PCs attack sequence, but explicitly attempting a feint has no meaning under the rules, thus a player stating such an attempt is in conflict with what the rules describe). ... break a limb? (injuries are not modeled as anything other than hit point loss, even though breaks should be common giving the physically dangerous activities PCs engage in). ... learn a weapon not on your class list? (this restriction is wholly artificial and not even representative of the much of the source fiction) ... start a Thieves Guild prior to 10th level? (again, an artificial restriction which can easily be at odds with the in-game fiction, as it is in my current campaign) I could go on. There has always been friction, disagreement, ahem, dissociation between the rules and the in-game fiction. It's a product of the abstractions the rules are built out of. The association between the two is the produced, during play, by the people playing the game. Sure, they are different preference when it comes to the various mechanics. But they're almost all dissociated, in the sense they aren't --and make no claim of being-- process simulations, and require mental action on the part of the players/DM to fit them to the imagined in-game space. The game is simply, frequently, at odds with the fiction. We've known this since the beginning. Older versions of D&D accepted this without making a fuss. My biggest problem with the whole 'dissociated mechanics' thing isn't that it's an inherently bad critical framework for analyzing the rules -- it's that most people apply it in a completely arbitrary fashion to criticize mechanics they don't like, while turning a blind eye, or worse, trotting out pretzel logic, to all the places, usually in older editions, where it also applies. [/QUOTE]
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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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