Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="innerdude" data-source="post: 5990543" data-attributes="member: 85870"><p>It's not that 4e has zillions of metagame "artifacts" poking through the shingles and no other D&D edition does. It's (as I've said before in other threads), it's that the most visible, obvious metagame mechanics (AEDU and the powers system) differ in degree, nature, frequency, kind, and principle from prior editions, thus making them that much more scrutinized. If I were to pinpoint the most glaring change, it would be in kind and frequency---the powers system makes the metagame aspects of 4e jump straight to the forefront, <em>in actual play</em>, in the heart of the action. They're just obviously, natively there. </p><p></p><p>I know Hussar is on record as saying that 4e is "under the surface" much closer to 3e than 3e is to 1e, but based SOLELY on the 4e system as presented in the initial 3 core rulebooks, I don't know how anyone can really make that claim. Yeah, it's roll d20 and get the highest number possible, but the entire baseline "structure" for class development is nothing like 3e. How many GMs have gone on record on these forums saying that they could convert 80-90% of characters from 1e up to 3e without much difficulty, but had to start over with 4e? Even pemerton freely admits that the kind of D&D he plays / GMs is not anywhere explicitly "defined" within the core 4e rulebooks; it's taken lots "shaking up" with input from other sources. </p><p></p><p>And yes, to some degree people who have played prior editions have learned to just gloss over the metagame inconsistencies.....but then they've been around long enough for the "glossing over" to take hold, and players and GMs have oodles and oodles of advice and house rules on how to hammer down the "proud nails." </p><p></p><p>Believe me, though, I totally get the frustration with 3e not just mechanically, but in terms of coherency. I think my recent frustration with 3e and Pathfinder came from the fact that I wanted those rule sets to be <em>internally consistent</em> as stand-alone entities. But 3e was never meant to be "internally consistent" as a stand-alone; it's meant to be internally consistent with the D&D family of RPGs. D&D 3e is waaaaay better when it doesn't have to be "D&D," but can just be a great fantasy RPG (Fantasy Craft). </p><p></p><p>As far as "taking the red pill," I'm definitely off the 3.x / Pathfinder bandwagon. They're good systems, but are too beholden to "being D&D" for my taste anymore. They don't intersect with what I'm really looking for in a fantasy RPG to make them my preferred system(s). I just found that 4e wasn't my next "go to," and went a different direction entirely. </p><p></p><p>At this point, my problem with 4e isn't that I don't rationally understand its merits, or logically recognize what it improves over 3e. It's that deep down, I just don't "grok" 4e's style of fantasy RPG. I wouldn't even know how to begin mixing the metagame constructs with what I consider "classic D&D tropes." Now, take me out of D&D and throw me into FATE (Legends of Anglerre) and I TOTALLY GET how narrative metagaming works....but it's not trying to be D&D. </p><p></p><p>Anyway, sort of rambling now, so I'm off. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="innerdude, post: 5990543, member: 85870"] It's not that 4e has zillions of metagame "artifacts" poking through the shingles and no other D&D edition does. It's (as I've said before in other threads), it's that the most visible, obvious metagame mechanics (AEDU and the powers system) differ in degree, nature, frequency, kind, and principle from prior editions, thus making them that much more scrutinized. If I were to pinpoint the most glaring change, it would be in kind and frequency---the powers system makes the metagame aspects of 4e jump straight to the forefront, [I]in actual play[/I], in the heart of the action. They're just obviously, natively there. I know Hussar is on record as saying that 4e is "under the surface" much closer to 3e than 3e is to 1e, but based SOLELY on the 4e system as presented in the initial 3 core rulebooks, I don't know how anyone can really make that claim. Yeah, it's roll d20 and get the highest number possible, but the entire baseline "structure" for class development is nothing like 3e. How many GMs have gone on record on these forums saying that they could convert 80-90% of characters from 1e up to 3e without much difficulty, but had to start over with 4e? Even pemerton freely admits that the kind of D&D he plays / GMs is not anywhere explicitly "defined" within the core 4e rulebooks; it's taken lots "shaking up" with input from other sources. And yes, to some degree people who have played prior editions have learned to just gloss over the metagame inconsistencies.....but then they've been around long enough for the "glossing over" to take hold, and players and GMs have oodles and oodles of advice and house rules on how to hammer down the "proud nails." Believe me, though, I totally get the frustration with 3e not just mechanically, but in terms of coherency. I think my recent frustration with 3e and Pathfinder came from the fact that I wanted those rule sets to be [I]internally consistent[/I] as stand-alone entities. But 3e was never meant to be "internally consistent" as a stand-alone; it's meant to be internally consistent with the D&D family of RPGs. D&D 3e is waaaaay better when it doesn't have to be "D&D," but can just be a great fantasy RPG (Fantasy Craft). As far as "taking the red pill," I'm definitely off the 3.x / Pathfinder bandwagon. They're good systems, but are too beholden to "being D&D" for my taste anymore. They don't intersect with what I'm really looking for in a fantasy RPG to make them my preferred system(s). I just found that 4e wasn't my next "go to," and went a different direction entirely. At this point, my problem with 4e isn't that I don't rationally understand its merits, or logically recognize what it improves over 3e. It's that deep down, I just don't "grok" 4e's style of fantasy RPG. I wouldn't even know how to begin mixing the metagame constructs with what I consider "classic D&D tropes." Now, take me out of D&D and throw me into FATE (Legends of Anglerre) and I TOTALLY GET how narrative metagaming works....but it's not trying to be D&D. Anyway, sort of rambling now, so I'm off. :p [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
Top