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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Crazy Jerome" data-source="post: 5991933" data-attributes="member: 54877"><p>Well, I'm in no way ripping the playstyle. They've got enough of that in the last 20 years. They don't need any more from me. However, I am speculating on why I think they don't seem to be very good at analyzing their playstyle, expressing it to others, or seeing the opposing playstyles. If I'm crossing some line to condescension in doing so, please keep in mind that I'm trying to understand something that I don't generally do, but that from my perspective the adherents of do not explain well. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/nervous.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":heh:" title="Nervous Laugh :heh:" data-shortname=":heh:" /></p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Doing the always risky armchair analysis, I'd say that last part indicates a desire to be doing deep immersion. Whether you are or not, I couldn't say.</p><p> </p><p>Whereas, something like an active and dedicated appreciation for shallow immersion as shallow immersion would be something like simultaneously appreciating the power of the moment while also aware of the factors that make it so. For example, to really get me ripped up about a piece of popular music (even plebian tastes can move along the continuum <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> ), I need for it to have a good melody, poetic lyrics, sung with a voice that fits the style of the music, and generally a good counter-melody and chord structure. When I find something like that--Alison Krause and Union Station's "Paper Airplane" for example, then I'm simultaneously enjoying it as music, but also consciously the interplay of the above parts.</p><p> </p><p>This may tie into the next part below, and you may have given me another piece of the puzzle (thanks!).</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Pure speculation: Shallow immersion can be an intermediate step on the way to deep immersion. It's like the appetizer, and while a deep immersionists may enjoy it as that, it's thin as the main course. However, for others, shallow immersion can be the main course, the blend of the immersion, <strong>with the conscious awareness and appreciation of what produces it at the time</strong>, being the goal.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Not all adults are like that. I'm not terribly so--and certainly not in my roleplaying. The C.S. Lewis quote about teenagers springs to mind. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> (Something along the lines that when he was young, he disliked childish things because they were childish. When he was grown, he put away childish things--such as the belief that fairy tales were childish. That's butchered on my part.) Though I certainly think there is a sense of wonder that can be hard to recapture. Chesterton's bit about an 8 year old is astonished that there might be an elf in the garden, but a 4 year old is astonished that there is a garden. </p><p> </p><p>You might say that the capacity of adults to immerse is equal to that of children, but the time to do so may be more limited, and then when they do, what they immerse in will necessarily be different due to experience. Given enough constraints, the adult capacity could atrophy, but this is not predestined. However, now you've got me playing amateur psychologist--never a good thing. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/blush.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":blush:" title="Blush :blush:" data-shortname=":blush:" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Crazy Jerome, post: 5991933, member: 54877"] Well, I'm in no way ripping the playstyle. They've got enough of that in the last 20 years. They don't need any more from me. However, I am speculating on why I think they don't seem to be very good at analyzing their playstyle, expressing it to others, or seeing the opposing playstyles. If I'm crossing some line to condescension in doing so, please keep in mind that I'm trying to understand something that I don't generally do, but that from my perspective the adherents of do not explain well. :heh: Doing the always risky armchair analysis, I'd say that last part indicates a desire to be doing deep immersion. Whether you are or not, I couldn't say. Whereas, something like an active and dedicated appreciation for shallow immersion as shallow immersion would be something like simultaneously appreciating the power of the moment while also aware of the factors that make it so. For example, to really get me ripped up about a piece of popular music (even plebian tastes can move along the continuum ;) ), I need for it to have a good melody, poetic lyrics, sung with a voice that fits the style of the music, and generally a good counter-melody and chord structure. When I find something like that--Alison Krause and Union Station's "Paper Airplane" for example, then I'm simultaneously enjoying it as music, but also consciously the interplay of the above parts. This may tie into the next part below, and you may have given me another piece of the puzzle (thanks!). Pure speculation: Shallow immersion can be an intermediate step on the way to deep immersion. It's like the appetizer, and while a deep immersionists may enjoy it as that, it's thin as the main course. However, for others, shallow immersion can be the main course, the blend of the immersion, [B]with the conscious awareness and appreciation of what produces it at the time[/B], being the goal. Not all adults are like that. I'm not terribly so--and certainly not in my roleplaying. The C.S. Lewis quote about teenagers springs to mind. :) (Something along the lines that when he was young, he disliked childish things because they were childish. When he was grown, he put away childish things--such as the belief that fairy tales were childish. That's butchered on my part.) Though I certainly think there is a sense of wonder that can be hard to recapture. Chesterton's bit about an 8 year old is astonished that there might be an elf in the garden, but a 4 year old is astonished that there is a garden. You might say that the capacity of adults to immerse is equal to that of children, but the time to do so may be more limited, and then when they do, what they immerse in will necessarily be different due to experience. Given enough constraints, the adult capacity could atrophy, but this is not predestined. However, now you've got me playing amateur psychologist--never a good thing. :blush: [/QUOTE]
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