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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5993269" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Upthread I was called a snob for saying that Graham Greene's books are richer in thematic content than airport thrillers.</p><p></p><p>I'm going to risk being called a snob again, I think. But as with the claim about literature, if I'm a snob I'm a sincere one.</p><p></p><p>Some of us, at least, who are posting in this thread are familiar with a range of games - by playing them, by reading them, or both. Including hardcore process-sim games like Runequest, Rolemaster and the like (the games that the Forge calls "purist-for-system" simulation). And for at least some of that sub-group of players - and I am one of them - I frankly find it jarring to read posts that (i) tell me how great 3E (most often, but sometimes pre-4e D&D in general) is for process sim play, (ii) don't give me any actual play examples to show how they are getting process-sim play out of D&D, and then (iii) go on to say that they're not familiar with RQ, or RM, or GURPS, or Classic Traveller.</p><p></p><p>Now, I want to emphasise the importance of (ii) above. If someone can give me actual play examples of how mainstream, pre-4e D&D mechanics can serve their process-sim ends, I am very interested in that. And from those examples I'll be able to see whether or not what the person is getting is process-sim play. (Just as I expect people to judge my claims about my 4e game from the actual play examples I post and occasionally link back to.)</p><p></p><p>But without the actual play examples, when someone says (iii), I personally put a bit of a question mark over their assertion of (i). Because - absent actual play examples - I look at D&D, I compare it to (say) Runequest, and I wonder what degree of process sim it is really delivering!</p><p></p><p>And then - and this is directly relevant to opne of [MENTION=6698278]Emerikol[/MENTION]'s lines of argument - I start to think that it might be true that people crave process sim, but that doesn't explain <em>D&D's</em> popularity - because D&D isn't all that good at process sim compared to those other games. The explanation, rather, seems to be D&D's prior degree of market penetration - that people don't have cupboard fulls of other RPGs.</p><p></p><p>I also start to think, maybe people don't really like <em>too much </em>process sim, because it tends to make combat pretty dangerous for mundane personages. Maybe they like a bit of plot protection to go with their proccess sim - hit points, say! But now the same people want to argue that changing the game to grant plot <em>power</em> (martial dailies, etc) as well as plot protection, or changing the pacing consequences of the plot protection mechanics (ie adding healing surges to hit points), is some heretical new thing <em>because it disturbs their process sim</em>?</p><p></p><p>I can't see the heresy. All I can see is a preference for some techniques over others - like some people really like miniatures, and would use them even in games that don't specificall call for them. And others really dislike them and find they "disrupt their immersion" in the theatre of the mind.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5993269, member: 42582"] Upthread I was called a snob for saying that Graham Greene's books are richer in thematic content than airport thrillers. I'm going to risk being called a snob again, I think. But as with the claim about literature, if I'm a snob I'm a sincere one. Some of us, at least, who are posting in this thread are familiar with a range of games - by playing them, by reading them, or both. Including hardcore process-sim games like Runequest, Rolemaster and the like (the games that the Forge calls "purist-for-system" simulation). And for at least some of that sub-group of players - and I am one of them - I frankly find it jarring to read posts that (i) tell me how great 3E (most often, but sometimes pre-4e D&D in general) is for process sim play, (ii) don't give me any actual play examples to show how they are getting process-sim play out of D&D, and then (iii) go on to say that they're not familiar with RQ, or RM, or GURPS, or Classic Traveller. Now, I want to emphasise the importance of (ii) above. If someone can give me actual play examples of how mainstream, pre-4e D&D mechanics can serve their process-sim ends, I am very interested in that. And from those examples I'll be able to see whether or not what the person is getting is process-sim play. (Just as I expect people to judge my claims about my 4e game from the actual play examples I post and occasionally link back to.) But without the actual play examples, when someone says (iii), I personally put a bit of a question mark over their assertion of (i). Because - absent actual play examples - I look at D&D, I compare it to (say) Runequest, and I wonder what degree of process sim it is really delivering! And then - and this is directly relevant to opne of [MENTION=6698278]Emerikol[/MENTION]'s lines of argument - I start to think that it might be true that people crave process sim, but that doesn't explain [I]D&D's[/i] popularity - because D&D isn't all that good at process sim compared to those other games. The explanation, rather, seems to be D&D's prior degree of market penetration - that people don't have cupboard fulls of other RPGs. I also start to think, maybe people don't really like [I]too much [/I]process sim, because it tends to make combat pretty dangerous for mundane personages. Maybe they like a bit of plot protection to go with their proccess sim - hit points, say! But now the same people want to argue that changing the game to grant plot [I]power[/I] (martial dailies, etc) as well as plot protection, or changing the pacing consequences of the plot protection mechanics (ie adding healing surges to hit points), is some heretical new thing [I]because it disturbs their process sim[/I]? I can't see the heresy. All I can see is a preference for some techniques over others - like some people really like miniatures, and would use them even in games that don't specificall call for them. And others really dislike them and find they "disrupt their immersion" in the theatre of the mind. [/QUOTE]
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