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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Emerikol" data-source="post: 5993622" data-attributes="member: 6698278"><p>This is a lie. Get it LIE. And I've called people out on this several times. Either produce a quote in context that says - D&D 5e cannot contain a mechanic X even if I would be able to remove it. I have said if I can't remove it for my games then it is problematic. That is miles different. </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Your talking about games that WOTC dreams sales wise of returning to one day. 4e's greatest claim to fame was creating a cottage industry of 3e clones.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not going to get into terms with you. I am a simulationist in the GNS sense. I dislike 4e and its because I'm a simulationist that I dislike it. I also hate plot coupons especially and 4e is full of those. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The earlier editions could be played either way. 4e could be played one way. Thus they lost a lot of players who no longer had a way to play in the style they prefer.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I keep repeating and you keep not listening. That is the common theme I see across those who don't understand dissociative mechanics.</p><p></p><p>If as a player I say - I swing my sword and then I roll to see if my sword hits then that is very correlative. I could also say that I attack the enemy oer the course of one minute seeking for a key opening and stab when the chance arises. In either case my player is thinking exactly what my character is thinking.</p><p></p><p>On the other hand - if as a player I say - right now at this moment is when I am going to find an opening in the enemies defenses so I can make my special thrusting attack - then that is dissociative. If I have a finite number of manuevers that are finite for game balance reasons and in reality are finite in the fictional world then I have issue. I can't cast fireball over and over because there is an IN WORLD limitation on the number of times a fireball can be cast. Its not the player deciding that the wizard can cast fireball because the planets are aligned. The player AND the character both know once the fireball is cast it's gone. In the martial examples, the character NEVER knows that he can't do the martial trick again. It's a player decision. </p><p></p><p>So for me I need a game that at least offers a mode of play that is without plot coupons. Note I said a mode of play. It doesn't have to be the entire game. If half the classes use plot coupons and half don't then I can play with the half that don't. Same for the other side I'm assuming. </p><p></p><p>But if you are insistent on shoving your design philosophy down my throat, which is exactly what the 4e designers tried to do, then my money is going to a competitor and your game will be a failure. I on the other hand, am trying to be reasonable and say - why can't be include options for all. But if that isn't possible, I think the larger playerbase can be found in pre-4e than 4e. And not just because of Pathfinder.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Emerikol, post: 5993622, member: 6698278"] This is a lie. Get it LIE. And I've called people out on this several times. Either produce a quote in context that says - D&D 5e cannot contain a mechanic X even if I would be able to remove it. I have said if I can't remove it for my games then it is problematic. That is miles different. Your talking about games that WOTC dreams sales wise of returning to one day. 4e's greatest claim to fame was creating a cottage industry of 3e clones. I'm not going to get into terms with you. I am a simulationist in the GNS sense. I dislike 4e and its because I'm a simulationist that I dislike it. I also hate plot coupons especially and 4e is full of those. The earlier editions could be played either way. 4e could be played one way. Thus they lost a lot of players who no longer had a way to play in the style they prefer. I keep repeating and you keep not listening. That is the common theme I see across those who don't understand dissociative mechanics. If as a player I say - I swing my sword and then I roll to see if my sword hits then that is very correlative. I could also say that I attack the enemy oer the course of one minute seeking for a key opening and stab when the chance arises. In either case my player is thinking exactly what my character is thinking. On the other hand - if as a player I say - right now at this moment is when I am going to find an opening in the enemies defenses so I can make my special thrusting attack - then that is dissociative. If I have a finite number of manuevers that are finite for game balance reasons and in reality are finite in the fictional world then I have issue. I can't cast fireball over and over because there is an IN WORLD limitation on the number of times a fireball can be cast. Its not the player deciding that the wizard can cast fireball because the planets are aligned. The player AND the character both know once the fireball is cast it's gone. In the martial examples, the character NEVER knows that he can't do the martial trick again. It's a player decision. So for me I need a game that at least offers a mode of play that is without plot coupons. Note I said a mode of play. It doesn't have to be the entire game. If half the classes use plot coupons and half don't then I can play with the half that don't. Same for the other side I'm assuming. But if you are insistent on shoving your design philosophy down my throat, which is exactly what the 4e designers tried to do, then my money is going to a competitor and your game will be a failure. I on the other hand, am trying to be reasonable and say - why can't be include options for all. But if that isn't possible, I think the larger playerbase can be found in pre-4e than 4e. And not just because of Pathfinder. [/QUOTE]
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