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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 5994627" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>BIU is mine for clarity. What I wrote:</p><p></p><p><strong><em><u>"When I demanded Process-Sim while playing DnD, unfortunately my suspension of disbelief was impossible</u></em></strong>, given time and intense scrutiny, due to the unphysical nature of the implied setting and the abstractions that the system has historically been premised upon. <strong><u>In order for me to forgive those things (while demanding proper Process-Sim and overarching Simulation)</u></strong>, I would have had to either mind-wipe the results of my scrutiny away or not scrutinize and ignore the elephants in room poking me with their tusks or play a different system. <strong><em><u>Alternatively, I could change my expectations and playstyle. I did the latter.</u></em></strong></p><p></p><p><strong><em><u>The expectations are not lowered. They are different</u></em></strong>. Different due to the vast swath of differences between "Simulation" vs <strong><em><u>"Emulation"</u></em></strong> and "Process-Sim" vs <strong><em><u>"Outcome-Based Sim"</u></em></strong>.</p><p></p><p></p><p>How I <strong><em><u>changed my expectations and playstyle</u></em></strong>:</p><p></p><p></p><p>1) What happened?</p><p></p><p>Expectations = changed.</p><p></p><p></p><p>2) How did it happen?</p><p></p><p>Playstyle changed from:</p><p></p><p>(A) (i) Attempt to capture the feel, excitement, and fun of our favorite "genre-relevant" High Fantasy stories while (ii) immersing as much as possible through (iii) "Simulation of High Fantasy World Married to Real World Physics By Bay of Strict, Rigid, Linear Process-Sim." </p><p></p><p>to </p><p></p><p>(B) (i) Attempt to capture the feel, excitement, and fun of our favorite "genre-relevant" High Fantasy stories while (ii) immersing as much as possible through (iv) "Emulation of High Fantasy Heroic Adventure By Way of Gamist Conceits, Narrative Conventions, and Outcome-Based Simulation."</p><p></p><p></p><p>3) Why did it change?</p><p></p><p>- The primary aim was always to (i) "Attempt to capture the feel, excitement, and fun of my favorite "genre-relevant" High Fantasy stories." Secondary to that is immersing as much as possible (ii).</p><p></p><p>- Given time within the various iterations of the system, it was clear that due to the unphysical nature of the implied setting and the abstractions that the system was premised upon, strict adherence to "Simulation of High Fantasy World Married to Real World Physics By Bay of Strict, Rigid, Linear Process-Sim" <u><em><strong>by way of DnD mechanics</strong></em></u>, was not cutting it. In other words, it became clear that using DnD mechanics and its implied setting that (i), (ii) and (iii) were at odds with one another. We couldn't emulate emergent "genre relevant stories". We couldn't immerse because (ii) and (iii) seemed to be passive-aggressively at tension with one another all the time. Something had to give as (i), (ii) and (iii), by way of DnD mechanics, were clearly at odds with one another. So the question became, how to attain (i), top priority, while maintaining a "best case where possible" nod to (ii)?</p><p></p><p>- The answer: Change playstyle from (A) to (B) because that not only gave us the best ability to capture (i) through emergence in play but also allowed us to philosophically ease up the angst over the imperfect DnD sim/process-sim and thus relax and have more of (ii).</p><p></p><p></p><p>So lets get to your CaGI question specifically:</p><p></p><p>- First, if I was attempting to play 4e as strict "Simulation of High Fantasy World Married to Real World Physics By Bay of Strict, Rigid, Linear Process-Sim", I would avoid Director Stance Powers such as CaGI. </p><p></p><p>- Now for my game, CaGI would not be a problem as Director Stance and Outcome-Based (glossing over process) Sim is "within playstyle" as they both help towards attaining (i). </p><p></p><p>1) The player thinks:</p><p></p><p>- "I've got many bad guys scattered in front of me and I want them close to me for a follow up attack." (Gamist Conceit + Outcome-Based Simulation thought process)</p><p></p><p>- "I've seen Adventure movies/read books where protagonists juke the bad guys into thinking I'm running away only to quickly spin and engage them as the recklessly follow. I've also seen protagonists enrage enemies by way of roars, challenges, bluffs, barbs and the bad guys wade right in." (Outcome-Based Simulation thought process by way of consideration of Genre Relevance and Narrative Convention)</p><p></p><p>- Subconsciously: "I'm going to enter Director Stance" (Narrative convention). Consciously: "I use <em>Come and Get It</em> and THIS HAPPENS." (Gamist Conceit + Outcome-Based Simulation + Narrative Convention).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 5994627, member: 6696971"] BIU is mine for clarity. What I wrote: [B][I][U]"When I demanded Process-Sim while playing DnD, unfortunately my suspension of disbelief was impossible[/U][/I][/B], given time and intense scrutiny, due to the unphysical nature of the implied setting and the abstractions that the system has historically been premised upon. [B][U]In order for me to forgive those things (while demanding proper Process-Sim and overarching Simulation)[/U][/B], I would have had to either mind-wipe the results of my scrutiny away or not scrutinize and ignore the elephants in room poking me with their tusks or play a different system. [B][I][U]Alternatively, I could change my expectations and playstyle. I did the latter.[/U][/I][/B] [B][I][U]The expectations are not lowered. They are different[/U][/I][/B]. Different due to the vast swath of differences between "Simulation" vs [B][I][U]"Emulation"[/U][/I][/B] and "Process-Sim" vs [B][I][U]"Outcome-Based Sim"[/U][/I][/B]. How I [B][I][U]changed my expectations and playstyle[/U][/I][/B]: 1) What happened? Expectations = changed. 2) How did it happen? Playstyle changed from: (A) (i) Attempt to capture the feel, excitement, and fun of our favorite "genre-relevant" High Fantasy stories while (ii) immersing as much as possible through (iii) "Simulation of High Fantasy World Married to Real World Physics By Bay of Strict, Rigid, Linear Process-Sim." to (B) (i) Attempt to capture the feel, excitement, and fun of our favorite "genre-relevant" High Fantasy stories while (ii) immersing as much as possible through (iv) "Emulation of High Fantasy Heroic Adventure By Way of Gamist Conceits, Narrative Conventions, and Outcome-Based Simulation." 3) Why did it change? - The primary aim was always to (i) "Attempt to capture the feel, excitement, and fun of my favorite "genre-relevant" High Fantasy stories." Secondary to that is immersing as much as possible (ii). - Given time within the various iterations of the system, it was clear that due to the unphysical nature of the implied setting and the abstractions that the system was premised upon, strict adherence to "Simulation of High Fantasy World Married to Real World Physics By Bay of Strict, Rigid, Linear Process-Sim" [U][I][B]by way of DnD mechanics[/B][/I][/U], was not cutting it. In other words, it became clear that using DnD mechanics and its implied setting that (i), (ii) and (iii) were at odds with one another. We couldn't emulate emergent "genre relevant stories". We couldn't immerse because (ii) and (iii) seemed to be passive-aggressively at tension with one another all the time. Something had to give as (i), (ii) and (iii), by way of DnD mechanics, were clearly at odds with one another. So the question became, how to attain (i), top priority, while maintaining a "best case where possible" nod to (ii)? - The answer: Change playstyle from (A) to (B) because that not only gave us the best ability to capture (i) through emergence in play but also allowed us to philosophically ease up the angst over the imperfect DnD sim/process-sim and thus relax and have more of (ii). So lets get to your CaGI question specifically: - First, if I was attempting to play 4e as strict "Simulation of High Fantasy World Married to Real World Physics By Bay of Strict, Rigid, Linear Process-Sim", I would avoid Director Stance Powers such as CaGI. - Now for my game, CaGI would not be a problem as Director Stance and Outcome-Based (glossing over process) Sim is "within playstyle" as they both help towards attaining (i). 1) The player thinks: - "I've got many bad guys scattered in front of me and I want them close to me for a follow up attack." (Gamist Conceit + Outcome-Based Simulation thought process) - "I've seen Adventure movies/read books where protagonists juke the bad guys into thinking I'm running away only to quickly spin and engage them as the recklessly follow. I've also seen protagonists enrage enemies by way of roars, challenges, bluffs, barbs and the bad guys wade right in." (Outcome-Based Simulation thought process by way of consideration of Genre Relevance and Narrative Convention) - Subconsciously: "I'm going to enter Director Stance" (Narrative convention). Consciously: "I use [I]Come and Get It[/I] and THIS HAPPENS." (Gamist Conceit + Outcome-Based Simulation + Narrative Convention). [/QUOTE]
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