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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 5998181" data-attributes="member: 6668292"><p>Just to reiterate, even though I'm replying to a couple posts, I'm still not too interested in the current discussion. Since my last post, it seems like it's now "here's why the other side is wrong", "let's pat the guys we agree with on the back", and "here's why I get to be insulting and it's okay." Not really interested in this current take on the thread.</p><p></p><p>Onto more useful posts, perhaps.</p><p></p><p>I believe a "simple tool" is probably an "improvised tool" of some sort. The -2 penalty matches up with this. The skill is just stating that a tool of some sort must be employed (which is what Hussar pointed out).</p><p></p><p>Oh yes, I get this.</p><p></p><p>Formatting? That's a separate issue, in my mind. But, in any case, I don't think 3.X ever intended to be mostly process sim. But, as I said, I've been trying to stay out of this part of the conversation, so you can have the last word on it, if you want. As always, play what you like <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>I think this is part of the problem. People <em>are</em> saying that these mechanics hurt their immersion, but I'm not sure people in this thread are saying that they make the game objectively "board game"-like, or not an RPG.</p><p></p><p>Personally, I think that you're defending against those when you don't need to be. Nagol, Lost Soul, and Underman aren't saying that, as far as I can tell. In the meantime, everyone else is acting like people are agreeing with the <em>entirety of JA's conclusions</em> in his Dissociated Mechanics article, when I'd posit that most people that agree with him just identify with his "dissociated" statement, and might come to the same conclusion for themselves (that is, it might feel like a board game to them).</p><p></p><p>His comments on "tactical skirmish play" are also tied into the minis line at the time, etc. The discussion on "dissociated mechanics", if it is to be useful, should be on the ideas of what someone thinks it is: Lost Soul trying to figure it out (and maybe succeeding?), Nagol giving his personal input, Underman saying what he thinks and distancing himself from terminology or JA's conclusions, my previous take in the other huge thread (my "learned, explored, or observed in-game" take on dissociated mechanics), general talk of "plot coupons" and the like as references, etc.</p><p></p><p>Continuing to defend against JA's conclusions is bogging down this entire discussion, in my view. The real discussion is about how the mechanics are "dissociating" to people (or what makes them lose immersion), and not "that means it's a board game!" That's just not helpful (to argue as objective truth, or to assume people believe this without them saying it), in my opinion. As always, play what you like <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JamesonCourage, post: 5998181, member: 6668292"] Just to reiterate, even though I'm replying to a couple posts, I'm still not too interested in the current discussion. Since my last post, it seems like it's now "here's why the other side is wrong", "let's pat the guys we agree with on the back", and "here's why I get to be insulting and it's okay." Not really interested in this current take on the thread. Onto more useful posts, perhaps. I believe a "simple tool" is probably an "improvised tool" of some sort. The -2 penalty matches up with this. The skill is just stating that a tool of some sort must be employed (which is what Hussar pointed out). Oh yes, I get this. Formatting? That's a separate issue, in my mind. But, in any case, I don't think 3.X ever intended to be mostly process sim. But, as I said, I've been trying to stay out of this part of the conversation, so you can have the last word on it, if you want. As always, play what you like :) I think this is part of the problem. People [I]are[/I] saying that these mechanics hurt their immersion, but I'm not sure people in this thread are saying that they make the game objectively "board game"-like, or not an RPG. Personally, I think that you're defending against those when you don't need to be. Nagol, Lost Soul, and Underman aren't saying that, as far as I can tell. In the meantime, everyone else is acting like people are agreeing with the [I]entirety of JA's conclusions[/I] in his Dissociated Mechanics article, when I'd posit that most people that agree with him just identify with his "dissociated" statement, and might come to the same conclusion for themselves (that is, it might feel like a board game to them). His comments on "tactical skirmish play" are also tied into the minis line at the time, etc. The discussion on "dissociated mechanics", if it is to be useful, should be on the ideas of what someone thinks it is: Lost Soul trying to figure it out (and maybe succeeding?), Nagol giving his personal input, Underman saying what he thinks and distancing himself from terminology or JA's conclusions, my previous take in the other huge thread (my "learned, explored, or observed in-game" take on dissociated mechanics), general talk of "plot coupons" and the like as references, etc. Continuing to defend against JA's conclusions is bogging down this entire discussion, in my view. The real discussion is about how the mechanics are "dissociating" to people (or what makes them lose immersion), and not "that means it's a board game!" That's just not helpful (to argue as objective truth, or to assume people believe this without them saying it), in my opinion. As always, play what you like :) [/QUOTE]
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