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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5998210" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>If [MENTION=23935]Nagol[/MENTION], [MENTION=386]LostSoul[/MENTION] and/or [MENTION=6696705]Underman[/MENTION] think that what I'm saying is unfair, I'm very willing to engage. I XPed Underman's last (or second-last?) post upthread. I think Nagol knows that I have a lot of respect for his (?) views, and I believe we've engaged profitably in this thread. And of all the many posters on this board, LostSoul has probably had more impact on my approach to play and GMing then the rest put together!</p><p></p><p>I'm also interested in this. I've also posted accounts of my own and my players' immersive play, and various mechanics and GMing techniques that have helped with that - including, on occasion, so-called "dissociated" mechanics.</p><p></p><p> [MENTION=336]D'karr[/MENTION], [MENTION=3887]Mallus[/MENTION] and I have also compared, in some detail, encounter powers, mooted fatigue points, and hit points, and the way different approaches to them in play might serve or undermine various immersive purposes for various playstyles.</p><p></p><p>That's one discussion. Though it has a curious dynamic.</p><p></p><p>If I started a thread on the 15-minute adventuring day, it wouldn't be very long before I had a dozen posts on that thread telling me that I'm playing wrong: that I need to use more wandering monsters, a more dynamic world, time-based scenarios etc. And, indeed, these probably are pretty central to pre-3E D&D play: wandering monsters are a core element of classic D&D, and heavy GM force to control pacing is pretty central to 2nd ed adventures (I'm thinking especially of the Planescape and Ravenloft ones that I'm familiar with).</p><p></p><p>I'm personally not interested either in wandering monsters or in that type of GM force. Instead I reach the conclusion that I need a different game from classic D&D, or 2nd ed AD&D, or 3E for that matter. But it wouldn't occur to me to tell those other posters that <em>they</em> are playing wrong, or drifting the game in order to make it work.</p><p></p><p>Whereas, when I and others post to explain how encounter powers don't hurt our immersion ("Treat them the same as hp, however exactly you handle them""), or how encounter-based (ie scene-based) play is desirable for us, there's always a slew of posts to tell us that we're not really RPGing ("tactical skirmish loosely connected by freeform improv" is the poster child for this), or that we're not really immersed, or that our fighters are all really spellcasters, or that we're playing 4e in a way that it wasn't intended to be played by its designers ("They meant for it to be a tactical skirmish game loosely connected by freeform improv, but because you guys have played some Forge-y games you've drifted it in some different, uninteded direction.")</p><p></p><p>But anyway, that wasn't the conversation my post that you quoted was immediately directed to. I was primarily responding to this other one:</p><p></p><p>I don't go around telling other posters that they don't care for D&D. Whereas time and again 4e playes get told that we are spoiling (or have spoiled) D&D, that we should go and get our own game, etc.</p><p></p><p>When I say that 4e is the first version of D&D to deliver the story experience that D&D has promised at least since the Foreword to Moldvay Basic (of earlier editions, I personally have found AD&D Oriental Adventures to come closest), I repeatedly get called upon to explain, or apologise, or justify: as if this was expressing some sort of <em>hate</em> for D&D, when from my point of view and my own experience, it's expressing a deep fondness: for 30 years I've been using the story elements that TSR and then WotC have published, and finally they've also published a mechanical system that I can use to support those story elements.</p><p></p><p>Now I'm happy to believe that my experiences and preferences are unusual. I wouldn't expect any but a small number of other posters to share them. But I don't see why they are less important and less authoritative than those who think that D&D is about wandering monsters and/or process sim mechanics. I've got as fulll a shelf of D&D stuff as any other typical poster here!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5998210, member: 42582"] If [MENTION=23935]Nagol[/MENTION], [MENTION=386]LostSoul[/MENTION] and/or [MENTION=6696705]Underman[/MENTION] think that what I'm saying is unfair, I'm very willing to engage. I XPed Underman's last (or second-last?) post upthread. I think Nagol knows that I have a lot of respect for his (?) views, and I believe we've engaged profitably in this thread. And of all the many posters on this board, LostSoul has probably had more impact on my approach to play and GMing then the rest put together! I'm also interested in this. I've also posted accounts of my own and my players' immersive play, and various mechanics and GMing techniques that have helped with that - including, on occasion, so-called "dissociated" mechanics. [MENTION=336]D'karr[/MENTION], [MENTION=3887]Mallus[/MENTION] and I have also compared, in some detail, encounter powers, mooted fatigue points, and hit points, and the way different approaches to them in play might serve or undermine various immersive purposes for various playstyles. That's one discussion. Though it has a curious dynamic. If I started a thread on the 15-minute adventuring day, it wouldn't be very long before I had a dozen posts on that thread telling me that I'm playing wrong: that I need to use more wandering monsters, a more dynamic world, time-based scenarios etc. And, indeed, these probably are pretty central to pre-3E D&D play: wandering monsters are a core element of classic D&D, and heavy GM force to control pacing is pretty central to 2nd ed adventures (I'm thinking especially of the Planescape and Ravenloft ones that I'm familiar with). I'm personally not interested either in wandering monsters or in that type of GM force. Instead I reach the conclusion that I need a different game from classic D&D, or 2nd ed AD&D, or 3E for that matter. But it wouldn't occur to me to tell those other posters that [I]they[/I] are playing wrong, or drifting the game in order to make it work. Whereas, when I and others post to explain how encounter powers don't hurt our immersion ("Treat them the same as hp, however exactly you handle them""), or how encounter-based (ie scene-based) play is desirable for us, there's always a slew of posts to tell us that we're not really RPGing ("tactical skirmish loosely connected by freeform improv" is the poster child for this), or that we're not really immersed, or that our fighters are all really spellcasters, or that we're playing 4e in a way that it wasn't intended to be played by its designers ("They meant for it to be a tactical skirmish game loosely connected by freeform improv, but because you guys have played some Forge-y games you've drifted it in some different, uninteded direction.") But anyway, that wasn't the conversation my post that you quoted was immediately directed to. I was primarily responding to this other one: I don't go around telling other posters that they don't care for D&D. Whereas time and again 4e playes get told that we are spoiling (or have spoiled) D&D, that we should go and get our own game, etc. When I say that 4e is the first version of D&D to deliver the story experience that D&D has promised at least since the Foreword to Moldvay Basic (of earlier editions, I personally have found AD&D Oriental Adventures to come closest), I repeatedly get called upon to explain, or apologise, or justify: as if this was expressing some sort of [I]hate[/I] for D&D, when from my point of view and my own experience, it's expressing a deep fondness: for 30 years I've been using the story elements that TSR and then WotC have published, and finally they've also published a mechanical system that I can use to support those story elements. Now I'm happy to believe that my experiences and preferences are unusual. I wouldn't expect any but a small number of other posters to share them. But I don't see why they are less important and less authoritative than those who think that D&D is about wandering monsters and/or process sim mechanics. I've got as fulll a shelf of D&D stuff as any other typical poster here! [/QUOTE]
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