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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 5998305" data-attributes="member: 6668292"><p>Yes, you have. Your mileage has varied; this has little to do with my point, though.</p><p></p><p>Good! Don't tell other people they're playing wrong. That's good. If people say that to you, they're wrong. We're on the same page. However, there's just as much "your feelings don't make sense" getting thrown around <em>from both sides</em>, and it's just not productive. <em>Especially</em> when it's extended to posters who aren't saying those statements, which is what I was trying to say.</p><p></p><p>You know, I think this is mostly false. From my perception, there's usually not a "slew of posts" that tell you that you're not really RPGing, or that you're not really immersed. And, people on both sides of 4e say that it isn't played how the designers had in mind (how many posts have there been on skill challenges saying "it's too bad the designers didn't get the potential of this", or on any other mechanic, for that matter?).</p><p></p><p>Yes, people say those things. They also say that martial characters are spellcasters. I'm not going to deny that one being more common. It's bad shorthand, obviously. It has meaning, but it probably shouldn't be used as-is.</p><p></p><p>But, this is kind of my point. You have the perception of being attacked by a "slew of posts" on this sort of thing, whereas I just don't see it. And then, people like Underman or me or someone else gets stuck in the crossfire of your aggressive defense. At best, there's an initial influx of posts commenting, but rarely does somebody stick to the thread for a while spouting the claims you've made over and over again (a couple posters do, but not many, and not in most threads).</p><p></p><p>And, in my mind, that's kind of the problem. You're seemingly defending against those statements even now, against me, when I'm not making those claims. Neither is Nagol or Underman, as far as I can tell. And they were the posters in this thread over the last 20 pages posting more than some others. And yet, the aggressive defense is still up, and everyone bands together to protect against what could be civil, productive discussion.</p><p></p><p>I stayed mostly out of this discussion past a certain point for a reason. This is it. It's just not worth it. Play what you like, man.</p><p></p><p>I think the objection is that the <em>game</em> was "wrong" for their perception of D&D, and that people continuing to insist on those mechanics want to hurt the game they want. And some (not all, or even most) 4e supporters then post about balance, and how 4e is objectively better designed than previous editions and erased the failures of 3.X. And some AD&D posters talk about how 3.X was the beginning of the end, and how it's worthless as a game and it's only for powergamers.</p><p></p><p>People say things. They're shorthand for what they want in a game. It's oftentimes insulting, and it shouldn't be. But by no means is it one-sided. And by no means is it the majority for any group. Attributing the trouble posts or posters to all supports/dissenters of certain editions is just not productive.</p><p></p><p>Probably because this isn't a universal experience. I've seen you make that claim multiple times, and your assertion that the game prior to that point didn't hold up to that thematic play style well. People take exception to that, because they felt they achieved it. Just like you take exception to what other people say; to them, it probably feels like you're saying "you're not doing it right" or "you're using the game in ways it wasn't meant to be played" even if that's not what you mean. And if it is what you mean, then is it any wonder that people question it?</p><p></p><p>Oh, and way more than me. I think. I mean, I have a ton of D&D books. I've just never read or used the massive, massive majority of them. I've never even looked through most of them. They were given to me by my dad, after he got them for free online. I'm not hugely invested in D&D; I don't even currently play it, and I do game on a weekly basis.</p><p></p><p>You can take exception to people saying "you're doing it wrong." I understand that. I'm saying that people keep ganging up on posters that aren't saying that. And that's a shame, and I really wish it didn't happen.</p><p></p><p>Again, man, play whatever game you want; advocate for it, defend it. That all makes sense to me. I'm just so not interested in people shifting other people's claims to me or other posters and killing the discussion before it starts. I'm just not interested. As always, play what you like <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JamesonCourage, post: 5998305, member: 6668292"] Yes, you have. Your mileage has varied; this has little to do with my point, though. Good! Don't tell other people they're playing wrong. That's good. If people say that to you, they're wrong. We're on the same page. However, there's just as much "your feelings don't make sense" getting thrown around [I]from both sides[/I], and it's just not productive. [I]Especially[/I] when it's extended to posters who aren't saying those statements, which is what I was trying to say. You know, I think this is mostly false. From my perception, there's usually not a "slew of posts" that tell you that you're not really RPGing, or that you're not really immersed. And, people on both sides of 4e say that it isn't played how the designers had in mind (how many posts have there been on skill challenges saying "it's too bad the designers didn't get the potential of this", or on any other mechanic, for that matter?). Yes, people say those things. They also say that martial characters are spellcasters. I'm not going to deny that one being more common. It's bad shorthand, obviously. It has meaning, but it probably shouldn't be used as-is. But, this is kind of my point. You have the perception of being attacked by a "slew of posts" on this sort of thing, whereas I just don't see it. And then, people like Underman or me or someone else gets stuck in the crossfire of your aggressive defense. At best, there's an initial influx of posts commenting, but rarely does somebody stick to the thread for a while spouting the claims you've made over and over again (a couple posters do, but not many, and not in most threads). And, in my mind, that's kind of the problem. You're seemingly defending against those statements even now, against me, when I'm not making those claims. Neither is Nagol or Underman, as far as I can tell. And they were the posters in this thread over the last 20 pages posting more than some others. And yet, the aggressive defense is still up, and everyone bands together to protect against what could be civil, productive discussion. I stayed mostly out of this discussion past a certain point for a reason. This is it. It's just not worth it. Play what you like, man. I think the objection is that the [I]game[/I] was "wrong" for their perception of D&D, and that people continuing to insist on those mechanics want to hurt the game they want. And some (not all, or even most) 4e supporters then post about balance, and how 4e is objectively better designed than previous editions and erased the failures of 3.X. And some AD&D posters talk about how 3.X was the beginning of the end, and how it's worthless as a game and it's only for powergamers. People say things. They're shorthand for what they want in a game. It's oftentimes insulting, and it shouldn't be. But by no means is it one-sided. And by no means is it the majority for any group. Attributing the trouble posts or posters to all supports/dissenters of certain editions is just not productive. Probably because this isn't a universal experience. I've seen you make that claim multiple times, and your assertion that the game prior to that point didn't hold up to that thematic play style well. People take exception to that, because they felt they achieved it. Just like you take exception to what other people say; to them, it probably feels like you're saying "you're not doing it right" or "you're using the game in ways it wasn't meant to be played" even if that's not what you mean. And if it is what you mean, then is it any wonder that people question it? Oh, and way more than me. I think. I mean, I have a ton of D&D books. I've just never read or used the massive, massive majority of them. I've never even looked through most of them. They were given to me by my dad, after he got them for free online. I'm not hugely invested in D&D; I don't even currently play it, and I do game on a weekly basis. You can take exception to people saying "you're doing it wrong." I understand that. I'm saying that people keep ganging up on posters that aren't saying that. And that's a shame, and I really wish it didn't happen. Again, man, play whatever game you want; advocate for it, defend it. That all makes sense to me. I'm just so not interested in people shifting other people's claims to me or other posters and killing the discussion before it starts. I'm just not interested. As always, play what you like :) [/QUOTE]
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