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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Nagol" data-source="post: 5998310" data-attributes="member: 23935"><p>I not sure you could turn it into a disassociated element. The very nature of characteristics is based upon in-game expression. Perhaps something along the lines of "A character can roll 1d12, 1d10, 1d8, 1d6, and 1d4 as checks against attributes over the course of the adventure. The player may assign dice as desired as each check comes up. Any further checks are assigned a result of '1'."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No. It's because the character (humanish, martial power) has no ability to rely upon to move any and every enemy regardless of size, intellect, range preference, ability to recognise a taunt, or any other criteria we care to categorise by. Additionally, the fluff regarding the powers (as I have been told many times by 4e players) is really there as inspriation and the players are expected/encouraged to reskin as needed. It would become associated if the affected targets were narrowed -- say to a mind-affecting ability (so mindless enemies ignore the taunt) or to melee preference (which could be lulled into such an assault) or through choosing any other set of circumstances that help define the power in the game world or by granting the Martial power set "the ability to cloud minds".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not much different, but a little more attached to the world. Some types of creatures (like mindless ones) should be immune, but I don't know 4e well enough to know if that's the case.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Unless Get Over Here is using the <em>Voice</em> a la Bene Gesserit, I don't understand why the target is forced to move. Perhaps,the character doesn't want to get over here? Perhaps the target is vehemently opposed to get over here? Where is the compulsion coming from? Is there anything in-game to explain why the people are forced to shift around the grid? If the power is directed at a different PC, it does not appear resistable (though I could be wrong). You can't even use the "I haul him over" since the effect has more range than the character's reach.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The player can be distracted -- it's often referred to a breaking the suspension of disbelief, but if there is an in-game expression, it's not disassociation.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Certainly, <em><strong>if</strong></em> scientific laws do function for our heroes, they differ at least in detail and in some cases in gross. But in fairness to the scientificy Fighter he too takes advantage of the details -- like falling 200+ feet and walking away, consistently.</p><p></p><p>Players get distracted by elements too far from expectation -- see suspension of disbelief, above. Normal genre tropes usually don't cause this because they are part of the implicit contract for playing in that genre. Poor mechanical representations can cause distraction and the worse the mechanic the more likely such distraction is. But a simulation need not be perfect -- in fact <strong>can't</strong> be perfect and should only be good enough to get the desired range of outcomes in the simplest way.</p><p></p><p>For clarirty, I'll repeat. Disassociation is when a game element has no in-game rationale. For myself as a player, this means when I choose to affect the game environment in ways other than through my character's choice or when a game element's mechanics so very poorly represent the desired outcomes that I can't find an in-game rationale that fits the problem space.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Nagol, post: 5998310, member: 23935"] I not sure you could turn it into a disassociated element. The very nature of characteristics is based upon in-game expression. Perhaps something along the lines of "A character can roll 1d12, 1d10, 1d8, 1d6, and 1d4 as checks against attributes over the course of the adventure. The player may assign dice as desired as each check comes up. Any further checks are assigned a result of '1'." No. It's because the character (humanish, martial power) has no ability to rely upon to move any and every enemy regardless of size, intellect, range preference, ability to recognise a taunt, or any other criteria we care to categorise by. Additionally, the fluff regarding the powers (as I have been told many times by 4e players) is really there as inspriation and the players are expected/encouraged to reskin as needed. It would become associated if the affected targets were narrowed -- say to a mind-affecting ability (so mindless enemies ignore the taunt) or to melee preference (which could be lulled into such an assault) or through choosing any other set of circumstances that help define the power in the game world or by granting the Martial power set "the ability to cloud minds". Not much different, but a little more attached to the world. Some types of creatures (like mindless ones) should be immune, but I don't know 4e well enough to know if that's the case. Unless Get Over Here is using the [I]Voice[/I] a la Bene Gesserit, I don't understand why the target is forced to move. Perhaps,the character doesn't want to get over here? Perhaps the target is vehemently opposed to get over here? Where is the compulsion coming from? Is there anything in-game to explain why the people are forced to shift around the grid? If the power is directed at a different PC, it does not appear resistable (though I could be wrong). You can't even use the "I haul him over" since the effect has more range than the character's reach. The player can be distracted -- it's often referred to a breaking the suspension of disbelief, but if there is an in-game expression, it's not disassociation. Certainly, [I][B]if[/B][/I] scientific laws do function for our heroes, they differ at least in detail and in some cases in gross. But in fairness to the scientificy Fighter he too takes advantage of the details -- like falling 200+ feet and walking away, consistently. Players get distracted by elements too far from expectation -- see suspension of disbelief, above. Normal genre tropes usually don't cause this because they are part of the implicit contract for playing in that genre. Poor mechanical representations can cause distraction and the worse the mechanic the more likely such distraction is. But a simulation need not be perfect -- in fact [B]can't[/B] be perfect and should only be good enough to get the desired range of outcomes in the simplest way. For clarirty, I'll repeat. Disassociation is when a game element has no in-game rationale. For myself as a player, this means when I choose to affect the game environment in ways other than through my character's choice or when a game element's mechanics so very poorly represent the desired outcomes that I can't find an in-game rationale that fits the problem space. [/QUOTE]
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