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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 5998316" data-attributes="member: 6668292"><p>Heh, I'm not greatly invested in it or anything. Just a thought exercise, I guess.</p><p></p><p>I'd quibble with this, since you've named specific tools. It should be something like "even if a foot covering is employed. If you use Iron-soled Shoes, you gain a positive modifier." Foot covering could be anything that helps me walk across coals, just like a "simple tool" could be anything that helps me pick the lock.</p><p></p><p>So, I could use some tree bark strapped to my feet to attempt to Walk on Coals, or a piece of sharp metal to attempt to pick a lock. At least, that's my general interpretation, and why I phrased things the way I did, and made the inferences I did. This is also based on thieve's tools, as I'll note below (as you do as well).</p><p></p><p>I can see the valid argument for this. The "without thieve's tools = -2 penalty" can definitely stand on its own without the "even with a simple tool." So, I can agree with your interpretation, here.</p><p></p><p>The thieve's tools descriptions says "This kit contains the tools you need to use the Disable Device and Open Lock skills. Without these tools, you must improvise tools, and you take a -2 circumstance penalty on Disable Device and Open Lock checks." This obviously means that you need to improvise tools, but as to what you were commenting on from Open Lock, I can agree. I'd disagree with the ruling based on thieve's tool, but not if only Open Lock was read.</p><p></p><p>Yep. This shouldn't happen. The rules should agree. And you should be able to read the skill and get all the information you need there, without having to cross reference it with tools that you may not know you need to look up. <em>Especially</em> since the reading is could be read as contradictory.</p><p></p><p>Again, I'd say that's a formatting or editing issue, but I get the dislike for it. The potential there is big. Gotta be careful. Again, though, clear rules help to empower players, and I love that. I also like complex (not necessarily complicated) rules, but that's not necessary for "clear" rules. It's just a preference thing.</p><p></p><p>Good thoughts, by the way. It's why I originally mentioned the thieve's tools, and noted their page numbers. It's unfortunate that I need to, but I was speaking to the theoretical ruling, not necessarily the sole wording of Open Lock. Good fun, though. As always, play what you like <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JamesonCourage, post: 5998316, member: 6668292"] Heh, I'm not greatly invested in it or anything. Just a thought exercise, I guess. I'd quibble with this, since you've named specific tools. It should be something like "even if a foot covering is employed. If you use Iron-soled Shoes, you gain a positive modifier." Foot covering could be anything that helps me walk across coals, just like a "simple tool" could be anything that helps me pick the lock. So, I could use some tree bark strapped to my feet to attempt to Walk on Coals, or a piece of sharp metal to attempt to pick a lock. At least, that's my general interpretation, and why I phrased things the way I did, and made the inferences I did. This is also based on thieve's tools, as I'll note below (as you do as well). I can see the valid argument for this. The "without thieve's tools = -2 penalty" can definitely stand on its own without the "even with a simple tool." So, I can agree with your interpretation, here. The thieve's tools descriptions says "This kit contains the tools you need to use the Disable Device and Open Lock skills. Without these tools, you must improvise tools, and you take a -2 circumstance penalty on Disable Device and Open Lock checks." This obviously means that you need to improvise tools, but as to what you were commenting on from Open Lock, I can agree. I'd disagree with the ruling based on thieve's tool, but not if only Open Lock was read. Yep. This shouldn't happen. The rules should agree. And you should be able to read the skill and get all the information you need there, without having to cross reference it with tools that you may not know you need to look up. [I]Especially[/I] since the reading is could be read as contradictory. Again, I'd say that's a formatting or editing issue, but I get the dislike for it. The potential there is big. Gotta be careful. Again, though, clear rules help to empower players, and I love that. I also like complex (not necessarily complicated) rules, but that's not necessary for "clear" rules. It's just a preference thing. Good thoughts, by the way. It's why I originally mentioned the thieve's tools, and noted their page numbers. It's unfortunate that I need to, but I was speaking to the theoretical ruling, not necessarily the sole wording of Open Lock. Good fun, though. As always, play what you like :) [/QUOTE]
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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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