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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Ratskinner" data-source="post: 5998394" data-attributes="member: 6688937"><p>I meant it in both ways. I think the "metagamey" stuff was instituted as a side-effect, or perhaps a simple route to the secondary concerns of "step on up". In particular, since 3e so heavily favored casters, 4e worked very hard to achieve "balance" amongst the PC classes, races, etc. Gygaxian play has a particularly high challenge(especially at lower levels), but, strictly speaking, I don't think that's critical to "<a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/21/" target="_blank">Step on Up</a>":</p><p style="margin-left: 20px">With any luck, now that I'm claiming two things are being labeled rather than one, perhaps some of the debate about the label in question can settle down. At the Step On Up level, what's at stake? A bit of esteem, as stated above. But what about? Here's point <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1" target="_blank">#1</a> : what's really at stake can be totally overt (the basketball score), or it can nonverbal or otherwise subtle (who sinks the best single hoop, regardless of which team wins). All that matters is that it must exist embedded in the real-life social interaction. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p>So the bragging rights you mention are legitimate stakes in the "Step on Up" vision. 4e's story emphasis is much heavier than OD&D, however, and thus 4e does more to provide players with different points of esteem other than "I made it through alive." 4e aims to provide you with battles that have all manner of interesting little bits to brag about or bemoan. Its much more like a game of Sorry with the kids than OD&D's poker in a mob-run gambling den. 4e is far from a "pure" Gamist experience. (I'm sure you're aware that I feel D&D is always a bit of a mash-up that way.) However, it did take a big step that way compared to its immediate predecessors</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ratskinner, post: 5998394, member: 6688937"] I meant it in both ways. I think the "metagamey" stuff was instituted as a side-effect, or perhaps a simple route to the secondary concerns of "step on up". In particular, since 3e so heavily favored casters, 4e worked very hard to achieve "balance" amongst the PC classes, races, etc. Gygaxian play has a particularly high challenge(especially at lower levels), but, strictly speaking, I don't think that's critical to "[URL="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/21/"]Step on Up[/URL]": [INDENT]With any luck, now that I'm claiming two things are being labeled rather than one, perhaps some of the debate about the label in question can settle down. At the Step On Up level, what's at stake? A bit of esteem, as stated above. But what about? Here's point [URL=http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1[/URL] : what's really at stake can be totally overt (the basketball score), or it can nonverbal or otherwise subtle (who sinks the best single hoop, regardless of which team wins). All that matters is that it must exist embedded in the real-life social interaction. [/INDENT]So the bragging rights you mention are legitimate stakes in the "Step on Up" vision. 4e's story emphasis is much heavier than OD&D, however, and thus 4e does more to provide players with different points of esteem other than "I made it through alive." 4e aims to provide you with battles that have all manner of interesting little bits to brag about or bemoan. Its much more like a game of Sorry with the kids than OD&D's poker in a mob-run gambling den. 4e is far from a "pure" Gamist experience. (I'm sure you're aware that I feel D&D is always a bit of a mash-up that way.) However, it did take a big step that way compared to its immediate predecessors [/QUOTE]
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