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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5998508" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>The trouble is that the first few are specific criticisms we can point to and pick out details that make it so. And it isn't true that any impression-based criticism of 4e is a falsehood. What is true is that 4e plays a whole lot better than it reads and that there are huge festering mounds of lies propogated round 4e - and that most 4e players have significant experience of prior editions whereas most people who dislike 4e don't have significant experience of it.</p><p> </p><p>As for it getting worse with D&D Next discussions, possibly so. Pre-Next discussions I didn't venture out into the general gaming section of ENWorld much because I couldn't be bothered to see what misconceptions were propogated this time. D&D Next is encouraging us to stop ignoring each other. And if I can't avoid insulting nonsense (and I can't because like you I care about where D&D Next is going) I am going to push back against it.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Say rather 4e took a big, explicit step <em>back</em> to the Gamist side of things. All versions of D&D from Gary Gygax are <em>extremely</em> gamist, with XP for GP and the object being to loot dungeons. If you want to force gamism out of D&D then you need to force out Gygax and Arneson.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>I prefer my combat heavier than my OOC but 4e does go a bit too far.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>4e's biggest enemy is 4e's <em>presentation</em>.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Well, yes. That goes for <em>any two consecutive editions you care to name</em>. Go over to Dragonsfoot and tell them that 1e is the same game as 3e or even that 2e is the same as 1e and see what they have to say.</p><p></p><p>Literally every edition of D&D has a significantly different focus from its predecessor, and this is especially true for 2e which tried to reject the gamist roots of D&D in favour of further hacking into a high concept fantasy game.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Yes. It happens. And you can play 4e as a minatures skirmish game. People do.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>And I am not defending them. Some 4e fans do behave badly. However even that is significantly less impolite than you are being whenever you claim that 4e isn't D&D. They are claiming "You have your game and that's what you want so you should stick with it." You are claiming "You have your game and that's what you want - but you are actively wrong about what it is and so you should stick with it."</p><p> </p><p>Whenever you claim 4e isn't D&D you are being actively ruder than anyone who says you shouldn't talk about further development of D&D because you don't play 4e. It's the same basic attempt to kill conversation but with its own nasty twist added.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>And there I've, I believe, shown that I actively have <em>more</em> correlation with what I the player am doing and what my character is than in what is, to me, the disempowering and immersion-shattering one minute combat round of AD&D.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Indeed. I've had <em>exactly</em> the same conversation about the Kingmaker AP. And I still don't understand how some people find more than three encounters in any but an exceptional day with it while taking the time to explore hexes.</p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>That's my experience too. And ties to the Oberoni fallacy.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5998508, member: 87792"] The trouble is that the first few are specific criticisms we can point to and pick out details that make it so. And it isn't true that any impression-based criticism of 4e is a falsehood. What is true is that 4e plays a whole lot better than it reads and that there are huge festering mounds of lies propogated round 4e - and that most 4e players have significant experience of prior editions whereas most people who dislike 4e don't have significant experience of it. As for it getting worse with D&D Next discussions, possibly so. Pre-Next discussions I didn't venture out into the general gaming section of ENWorld much because I couldn't be bothered to see what misconceptions were propogated this time. D&D Next is encouraging us to stop ignoring each other. And if I can't avoid insulting nonsense (and I can't because like you I care about where D&D Next is going) I am going to push back against it. Say rather 4e took a big, explicit step [I]back[/I] to the Gamist side of things. All versions of D&D from Gary Gygax are [I]extremely[/I] gamist, with XP for GP and the object being to loot dungeons. If you want to force gamism out of D&D then you need to force out Gygax and Arneson. I prefer my combat heavier than my OOC but 4e does go a bit too far. 4e's biggest enemy is 4e's [I]presentation[/I]. Well, yes. That goes for [I]any two consecutive editions you care to name[/I]. Go over to Dragonsfoot and tell them that 1e is the same game as 3e or even that 2e is the same as 1e and see what they have to say. Literally every edition of D&D has a significantly different focus from its predecessor, and this is especially true for 2e which tried to reject the gamist roots of D&D in favour of further hacking into a high concept fantasy game. Yes. It happens. And you can play 4e as a minatures skirmish game. People do. And I am not defending them. Some 4e fans do behave badly. However even that is significantly less impolite than you are being whenever you claim that 4e isn't D&D. They are claiming "You have your game and that's what you want so you should stick with it." You are claiming "You have your game and that's what you want - but you are actively wrong about what it is and so you should stick with it." Whenever you claim 4e isn't D&D you are being actively ruder than anyone who says you shouldn't talk about further development of D&D because you don't play 4e. It's the same basic attempt to kill conversation but with its own nasty twist added. And there I've, I believe, shown that I actively have [I]more[/I] correlation with what I the player am doing and what my character is than in what is, to me, the disempowering and immersion-shattering one minute combat round of AD&D. Indeed. I've had [I]exactly[/I] the same conversation about the Kingmaker AP. And I still don't understand how some people find more than three encounters in any but an exceptional day with it while taking the time to explore hexes. That's my experience too. And ties to the Oberoni fallacy. [/QUOTE]
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