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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="chaochou" data-source="post: 5998689" data-attributes="member: 99817"><p>It's a simple question and it's been answered multiple times. It's because 'disocciation' is entirely subjective, so there's nothing but personal experience to discuss.</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p>My friends and I create the game world during play. My friends and I connect the mechanics to the game world during play.</p><p></p><p>So association or disocciation can not be a property of the mechanic because whether a mechanic connects to the game world is down to the individuals <em><strong>creating the game world and doing the connecting</strong></em>.</p><p></p><p>Therefore, association or disocciation can only be a subjective experience of succeeding in making connections, or not.</p><p></p><p>And this is why the discussion turns into 40 pages of people back at each other in a forlorn attempt to show HP are, or are not, disocciated, that Come and Get It is, or is not, disocciated. There's a mistaken belief that they are describing 'the mechanic'. They are not. They are simply describing their relationship <em><strong>to </strong></em>the mechanic.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So the question becomes, how much value does the subjective use (or objective misuse) of disocciation add to any discussion. So here's some pairs of statements:</p><p></p><p>a) Hit Points are disocciated</p><p>b) I couldn't understand why I could run, jump and climb with 1HP just as well as I could with 100.</p><p></p><p>a) Vancian casting is disocciated</p><p>b) I couldn't understand why I forget a spell after casting it. That didn't make sense.</p><p></p><p>a) Vicious Mockery is disocciated</p><p>b) We really struggled to narrate Vicious Mockery in a way which made sense in the situation</p><p></p><p>Which of those pairs of statements says what is happening? Which allows a constructive conversation to evolve rather that simple gainsaying? </p><p>Which one tells us about an instance of play which can be discussed?</p><p></p><p><em><strong>Which accepts responsibility on the part of the player for the outcomes they get during their play?</strong></em></p><p></p><p>Not only is disocciation an utterly flawed and useless concept in the objective sense, even if you try to bend it into some kind of subjective shape it still adds nothing to the conversation, because in and of itself it is still empty and meaningless.</p><p></p><p>Again, this is why every 'discussion' on this topic will continue to go in never-ending circles of restating contradictory experiences.</p><p></p><p>This is they key question (and honestly I'm only interested in replies which directly address it):</p><p></p><p><em><strong>How can a mechanic be disconnected from a game world in the absence of a group of people creating a game world and attempting to use the mechanic according to their preferences, priorities and experiences?</strong></em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="chaochou, post: 5998689, member: 99817"] It's a simple question and it's been answered multiple times. It's because 'disocciation' is entirely subjective, so there's nothing but personal experience to discuss. [INDENT] [/INDENT]My friends and I create the game world during play. My friends and I connect the mechanics to the game world during play. So association or disocciation can not be a property of the mechanic because whether a mechanic connects to the game world is down to the individuals [I][B]creating the game world and doing the connecting[/B][/I]. Therefore, association or disocciation can only be a subjective experience of succeeding in making connections, or not. And this is why the discussion turns into 40 pages of people back at each other in a forlorn attempt to show HP are, or are not, disocciated, that Come and Get It is, or is not, disocciated. There's a mistaken belief that they are describing 'the mechanic'. They are not. They are simply describing their relationship [I][B]to [/B][/I]the mechanic. So the question becomes, how much value does the subjective use (or objective misuse) of disocciation add to any discussion. So here's some pairs of statements: a) Hit Points are disocciated b) I couldn't understand why I could run, jump and climb with 1HP just as well as I could with 100. a) Vancian casting is disocciated b) I couldn't understand why I forget a spell after casting it. That didn't make sense. a) Vicious Mockery is disocciated b) We really struggled to narrate Vicious Mockery in a way which made sense in the situation Which of those pairs of statements says what is happening? Which allows a constructive conversation to evolve rather that simple gainsaying? Which one tells us about an instance of play which can be discussed? [I][B]Which accepts responsibility on the part of the player for the outcomes they get during their play?[/B][/I] Not only is disocciation an utterly flawed and useless concept in the objective sense, even if you try to bend it into some kind of subjective shape it still adds nothing to the conversation, because in and of itself it is still empty and meaningless. Again, this is why every 'discussion' on this topic will continue to go in never-ending circles of restating contradictory experiences. This is they key question (and honestly I'm only interested in replies which directly address it): [I][B]How can a mechanic be disconnected from a game world in the absence of a group of people creating a game world and attempting to use the mechanic according to their preferences, priorities and experiences?[/B][/I] [/QUOTE]
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