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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6000758" data-attributes="member: 22779"><p>Wait, what?</p><p></p><p>Since when has anyone who has disagreed with the idea of dissociated mechanics made any claims that clearly associated mechanics are bad and should not be included in the game? When has anyone, even when questioning whether a specific mechanic (such as HP, for example) is associated or not questioned whether or not that mechanic should be in the game at all.</p><p></p><p>OTOH, the critics of so called dissociated mechanics have spent the past couple of years pretty constantly trying to tell all and sundry that these kinds of mechanics must not be included in any future D&D product, that the inclusion of these mechanics makes the game so unpalatable that they won't even consider playing it, EVEN IF THE MECHANICS IN QUESTION AREN'T USED.</p><p></p><p>The simple presence of dissociated mechanics in the rules is apparently enough to turn some people away from the game. </p><p></p><p>So, no, you're not right here. It's not about shutting down criticism. Someone doesn't like mechanics that pull them out of immersion. Great. But, until it can be articulated HOW that disruption is happening in some situations and not others, it becomes pretty pointless to blanket remove all mechanics that someone claims disrupts immersion.</p><p></p><p>Going back to JC's example of wearing a blanket but not feeling hotter. Ok, fine. But, he goes further and tells everyone else that they must wear a blanket or they are wrong, that not having a blanket means they aren't really sleeping in a bed, then I'm going to have to see some pretty compelling evidence as to how wearing a blanket doesn't make me hotter.</p><p></p><p>That's what this is all about. The dissociated mechanics crowd is trying to draw a nice sharp border around D&D to exclude mechanics that they don't like. Never mind that it's pretty easy to simply not use these mechanics and that's what the whole "modular" approach seems to be about, but, as this thread has shown, multiple people will write off the whole game regardless, if these mechanics make it into the game.</p><p></p><p>I asked a while ago about the 5e Fighter's Combat Superiority dice (or whatever they're called). They're dissociated. Flat out. Why does tripping someone mean that I cannot block an attack from someone else, but stabbing them is okay? If I spend my combat dice to trip a target, it doesn't refresh until the beginning of my next turn. Thus, I cannot reduce damage until the beginning of my next turn. If I just stabbed the guy, then I could.</p><p></p><p>But, we don't see people up in arms about how this mechanic is dissociated and breaks immersion. From what I've seen, most people seem to think this is a really, really cool mechanic and it's getting pretty solid reviews.</p><p></p><p>So, obviously, the dissociation of a mechanic has pretty much nothing to do with anything. It's just sloppy short hand for "I don't like it". Might as well just call it video-gamey for all the meaning it actually brings to the discussion.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 6000758, member: 22779"] Wait, what? Since when has anyone who has disagreed with the idea of dissociated mechanics made any claims that clearly associated mechanics are bad and should not be included in the game? When has anyone, even when questioning whether a specific mechanic (such as HP, for example) is associated or not questioned whether or not that mechanic should be in the game at all. OTOH, the critics of so called dissociated mechanics have spent the past couple of years pretty constantly trying to tell all and sundry that these kinds of mechanics must not be included in any future D&D product, that the inclusion of these mechanics makes the game so unpalatable that they won't even consider playing it, EVEN IF THE MECHANICS IN QUESTION AREN'T USED. The simple presence of dissociated mechanics in the rules is apparently enough to turn some people away from the game. So, no, you're not right here. It's not about shutting down criticism. Someone doesn't like mechanics that pull them out of immersion. Great. But, until it can be articulated HOW that disruption is happening in some situations and not others, it becomes pretty pointless to blanket remove all mechanics that someone claims disrupts immersion. Going back to JC's example of wearing a blanket but not feeling hotter. Ok, fine. But, he goes further and tells everyone else that they must wear a blanket or they are wrong, that not having a blanket means they aren't really sleeping in a bed, then I'm going to have to see some pretty compelling evidence as to how wearing a blanket doesn't make me hotter. That's what this is all about. The dissociated mechanics crowd is trying to draw a nice sharp border around D&D to exclude mechanics that they don't like. Never mind that it's pretty easy to simply not use these mechanics and that's what the whole "modular" approach seems to be about, but, as this thread has shown, multiple people will write off the whole game regardless, if these mechanics make it into the game. I asked a while ago about the 5e Fighter's Combat Superiority dice (or whatever they're called). They're dissociated. Flat out. Why does tripping someone mean that I cannot block an attack from someone else, but stabbing them is okay? If I spend my combat dice to trip a target, it doesn't refresh until the beginning of my next turn. Thus, I cannot reduce damage until the beginning of my next turn. If I just stabbed the guy, then I could. But, we don't see people up in arms about how this mechanic is dissociated and breaks immersion. From what I've seen, most people seem to think this is a really, really cool mechanic and it's getting pretty solid reviews. So, obviously, the dissociation of a mechanic has pretty much nothing to do with anything. It's just sloppy short hand for "I don't like it". Might as well just call it video-gamey for all the meaning it actually brings to the discussion. [/QUOTE]
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