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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6001288" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I won't judge you harshly for your dislike of a dysfunctional game - I continue to have a very very soft spot for Rolemaster (and it's offshoots like HARP) after GMing it for nearly 20 years, but Rolemaster suffers from obvious, deep, and perhaps ineliminable, design flaws (much deeper than its issues with search-and-handling time for action resolution, which is simply about acquired taste).</p><p></p><p>As you know, I think that 4e is the best version of D&D for running a vanilla narrativist gonzo fantasy game, because of (i) its thematically tighter story elements, and (ii) its focus on scene-based play, and (iii) (as part of (ii)) its jettisoning of all the fiddly resource management aspects of classic D&D that make scene-based play difficult if not impossible.</p><p></p><p>In my mind, I associate that "anti-munchkin" attitude with the weaknesses of AD&D 2nd edition relative to the purposes it was ostensibly aimed at - namely, quasi-Gygaxian gamist character build and advancement rules ostensibly in service of "story"-oriented play.</p><p></p><p>Whereas my feeling is - if you want to avoid character optimisation, choose a system that doesn't permit it (I'm thinking, for example, of HeroWars/Quest).</p><p></p><p>This is a very interesting feature of 3E that I hear about from time to time, and can see myself when I look at the rules, but that doesn't seem to get as much attention as (perhaps) it deserves.</p><p></p><p>I think that this whole "you have to earn the right to play the character you want to play" thing is somewhat unique to D&D. In classic D&D, where getting a truly viable PC (especially a magic-user) is itself a goal of play, it made some sense.</p><p></p><p>Retaining it despite the cultural transition from Gygaxian gamism to the high-concept simulationism of 2nd ed AD&D and early 3E (as you are describing it) just seems strange. And tending to promote not only dysfunctional rulesets, but (in my view) somewhat dysfunctional play, based heavily around GM force and dispensation (as per the Ron Edwards quote that you posted).</p><p></p><p>The 4e categories of Heroic, Paragon and Epic seem to me an attempt to reconcile player protagonism with D&D levelling, by making your "character identity trajectory" a <em>given</em> background to play, rather than a goal of play as such: you don't have to <em>earn</em> it (from the game or the GM) - it will come to you, over time, simply by turning up and playing. (Hence, I think, why some people criticise 4e as "player entitlement" or "munchkinism" or "overpowered" - criticisms for which I personally have little sympathy.)</p><p></p><p>That does, of course, give rise to the question "what <em>is</em> the goal of 4e play, then?" I don't think the rulebooks for 4e are completely clear on this.</p><p></p><p>I haven't yet got a sense, yet, of how D&Dnext is going to handle this sort of stuff: what is the goal of play, and how does character development and expression fit into that goal.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6001288, member: 42582"] I won't judge you harshly for your dislike of a dysfunctional game - I continue to have a very very soft spot for Rolemaster (and it's offshoots like HARP) after GMing it for nearly 20 years, but Rolemaster suffers from obvious, deep, and perhaps ineliminable, design flaws (much deeper than its issues with search-and-handling time for action resolution, which is simply about acquired taste). As you know, I think that 4e is the best version of D&D for running a vanilla narrativist gonzo fantasy game, because of (i) its thematically tighter story elements, and (ii) its focus on scene-based play, and (iii) (as part of (ii)) its jettisoning of all the fiddly resource management aspects of classic D&D that make scene-based play difficult if not impossible. In my mind, I associate that "anti-munchkin" attitude with the weaknesses of AD&D 2nd edition relative to the purposes it was ostensibly aimed at - namely, quasi-Gygaxian gamist character build and advancement rules ostensibly in service of "story"-oriented play. Whereas my feeling is - if you want to avoid character optimisation, choose a system that doesn't permit it (I'm thinking, for example, of HeroWars/Quest). This is a very interesting feature of 3E that I hear about from time to time, and can see myself when I look at the rules, but that doesn't seem to get as much attention as (perhaps) it deserves. I think that this whole "you have to earn the right to play the character you want to play" thing is somewhat unique to D&D. In classic D&D, where getting a truly viable PC (especially a magic-user) is itself a goal of play, it made some sense. Retaining it despite the cultural transition from Gygaxian gamism to the high-concept simulationism of 2nd ed AD&D and early 3E (as you are describing it) just seems strange. And tending to promote not only dysfunctional rulesets, but (in my view) somewhat dysfunctional play, based heavily around GM force and dispensation (as per the Ron Edwards quote that you posted). The 4e categories of Heroic, Paragon and Epic seem to me an attempt to reconcile player protagonism with D&D levelling, by making your "character identity trajectory" a [I]given[/I] background to play, rather than a goal of play as such: you don't have to [I]earn[/I] it (from the game or the GM) - it will come to you, over time, simply by turning up and playing. (Hence, I think, why some people criticise 4e as "player entitlement" or "munchkinism" or "overpowered" - criticisms for which I personally have little sympathy.) That does, of course, give rise to the question "what [I]is[/I] the goal of 4e play, then?" I don't think the rulebooks for 4e are completely clear on this. I haven't yet got a sense, yet, of how D&Dnext is going to handle this sort of stuff: what is the goal of play, and how does character development and expression fit into that goal. [/QUOTE]
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