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With Respect to the Door and Expectations....The REAL Reason 5e Can't Unite the Base
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<blockquote data-quote="Balesir" data-source="post: 6002377" data-attributes="member: 27160"><p>Surely, all metagame mechanics facilitate some metagame agenda? You might not agree with the agenda, and you might abhor the fact that specific mechanics screw up another agenda that you happen to pursue, but they all facilitate some agenda or other.</p><p></p><p>OK, so, that would include hit points (social contract about when a character is dead) and experience points (social contract about when a character levels up) and so on. But these are "necessary" (despite the fact that several other games seem to do fine without them) and thus acceptable, is that what I'm hearing?</p><p></p><p>Well, they certainly facilitate gamist and narrativist play pretty well, from what I have experienced and read. Whether they do so better than an "associated alternative" I have no idea - Ihaven't seen any associated alternatives that work anywhere near so well, so far. That doesn't mean that they don't exist - just that I haven't seen any, yet.</p><p></p><p>If you think D&D should aspire to be the "one true roleplaying game" that might make sense. I don't believe in the existence of a "one true roleplaying game" (or faeries), so it doesn't make sense to me at all. Is there a potential "alternative" D&D conceivable that pursues an "immersionist" agenda rather than any gamist or narrativist support? Sure - but it, too, would look very different from earlier D&D editions.</p><p></p><p>It makes sense <strong><em>to you</em></strong> from a PC POV. The idea of a trip-spamming fighter or choosing to swap damage for conditions - even though that is effectively what the player is doing in 4e - would jar massively at my suspension of disbelief. That is just nowhere near what a real fight looks like. The 4e version might not simulate the moment-by-moment decision making of the fighter, but at least the <em>outcome</em> looks vaguely believable. The new CS gives the player of the fighter moment-by-moment decisions to make that are of just the sort that the enemy's actions and stance would dictate in real combat - but it gives them unaffected in the least by the enemy's actions and stance!</p><p></p><p>The only difference seems to be that the player gets to make decisions for the character at a far finer level of granularity; the decisions are made moment-to-moment, not in the abstract for the situation as a whole. Is that, perhaps, what we are really discussing, here?</p><p></p><p>But the 5th level fighter could still hit harder if he didn't choose to trip - and could still trip at any time, regardless of whether his opponent left an opening for such a move or not (or, indeed, whether of not he had just a moment ago tried the same move, thus giving away his intention/technique). I think, as Lost Soul has just said, it is clear that "dissociated" and "nonsensical" are not the same thing at all, since this might not be the first, but it's definitely the second...</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Balesir, post: 6002377, member: 27160"] Surely, all metagame mechanics facilitate some metagame agenda? You might not agree with the agenda, and you might abhor the fact that specific mechanics screw up another agenda that you happen to pursue, but they all facilitate some agenda or other. OK, so, that would include hit points (social contract about when a character is dead) and experience points (social contract about when a character levels up) and so on. But these are "necessary" (despite the fact that several other games seem to do fine without them) and thus acceptable, is that what I'm hearing? Well, they certainly facilitate gamist and narrativist play pretty well, from what I have experienced and read. Whether they do so better than an "associated alternative" I have no idea - Ihaven't seen any associated alternatives that work anywhere near so well, so far. That doesn't mean that they don't exist - just that I haven't seen any, yet. If you think D&D should aspire to be the "one true roleplaying game" that might make sense. I don't believe in the existence of a "one true roleplaying game" (or faeries), so it doesn't make sense to me at all. Is there a potential "alternative" D&D conceivable that pursues an "immersionist" agenda rather than any gamist or narrativist support? Sure - but it, too, would look very different from earlier D&D editions. It makes sense [B][I]to you[/I][/B] from a PC POV. The idea of a trip-spamming fighter or choosing to swap damage for conditions - even though that is effectively what the player is doing in 4e - would jar massively at my suspension of disbelief. That is just nowhere near what a real fight looks like. The 4e version might not simulate the moment-by-moment decision making of the fighter, but at least the [I]outcome[/I] looks vaguely believable. The new CS gives the player of the fighter moment-by-moment decisions to make that are of just the sort that the enemy's actions and stance would dictate in real combat - but it gives them unaffected in the least by the enemy's actions and stance! The only difference seems to be that the player gets to make decisions for the character at a far finer level of granularity; the decisions are made moment-to-moment, not in the abstract for the situation as a whole. Is that, perhaps, what we are really discussing, here? But the 5th level fighter could still hit harder if he didn't choose to trip - and could still trip at any time, regardless of whether his opponent left an opening for such a move or not (or, indeed, whether of not he had just a moment ago tried the same move, thus giving away his intention/technique). I think, as Lost Soul has just said, it is clear that "dissociated" and "nonsensical" are not the same thing at all, since this might not be the first, but it's definitely the second... [/QUOTE]
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